Wed, 2/24 11:14PM • 1:01:20
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, employees, company, employer, pandemic, office, home, tiffany, agree, hr, remote, important, job, conversations, person, flexible schedule, commute, individuals, phase, listening
00:04
Hello, everyone, welcome to resourceful humans. I’m your host, Corey haber. And today I have with me, Tiffany and keep both very experienced in the HR profession, and very different industries and backgrounds. So I’m excited to hear their opinions on the new workplace, which is our episode today.
00:26
Thanks for coming on today. You guys. Good to have you. Thanks for having us.
00:32
And so let’s just jump right in. I’m really curious to hear, you know, everything you have to say as far as what’s changing in our in HR, especially with the pandemic, but especially, you know, what do you feel the future of work is going to look like post COVID? And we know what it looks like now, but also, how do you feel like it’s gonna look after this? And how are things changing today because of the pandemic?
01:00
Is that would you would you consider that a question? You want to jump right in on that? Or did you have a specific question you want to ask?
01:09
was pretty broad based there? Okay.
01:14
I’ll make it more specific. So let’s, I want to know, what you feel like it’s different. In specific, what mostly as far as employees? What’s different as far as HR, what’s changing for HR? As far as how do you help the employees that while they’re working remote? Is that helpful? Yes, it is. And I’ll certainly jump in first, if you don’t mind, Tiffany,
01:40
I
01:42
certainly employees themselves are feeling much more independent these days. They’ve been rallying, employees in general been rallying for many years that they want to do their work and be allowed to do it, necessarily overly supervised. Now that most people, many people are working from home, that sort of been enforced for the last six months now.
02:09
My perspective is a little different, because only do I have the view from as HR for my current organization, but I my organization brings services to many others in many different industries. And I get a very close look at that, because I talk to all their HR leaders as well. So although I happen to be in the healthcare industry, working for a company, a mobile dentistry practice called plus bar, we also do services for many, many other companies across the United States. And resoundingly, I’m seeing a lot of organizations, I’m seeing a lot of employees spread their wings, if you will, they now know they can work from home, they now know they can work and work from home as a broad concept, work remotely. They don’t have to be at the office.
02:59
And I was working in May, April, and May, when we’d only been stay at home, if you will, for a couple of months, that the employers would be like, Okay, I’m holding my breath, but I gotta get my people back. So I can have them under my thumb. But now, it’s been six months. And I think that the employers are really starting to understand a, hey, there’s productivity going on, as long as I stay in close contact from it can work this way. And oh, by the way, maybe I don’t have to spend millions and millions of dollars on real estate I used to.
03:35
So
03:37
the future, if you will, isn’t going to be everybody work from home. But I think there’ll be a lot more leniency in that regard a lot more a willingness to go. And there’s, there’s been proof that it can work, if you will.
03:51
Yeah, I agree. I think that
03:54
I agree with you. I think that there’s been trust built now. So before where people, you know, are like, I don’t know, if I can trust my team or know what they’re doing. If I if I don’t have eyes on it, I may not be able to control it as much. They’re having to release some of that control now, and really trust their teams. I think that that’s so important. Not only is it freeing to our people, but it shouldn’t be a sign of like, Hey, we can we can be effective, as long as we have the right people in the positions and the right people in the right positions. In the right leadership. I think that that’s so important to make sure you still have leaders that are saying, hey, turn on your camera. I mean, sometimes we don’t want to and sometimes we don’t want to like put in the effort. But I think that that visual connection is so important and just to make sure they stay connected don’t make people feel like they’re on an island by themselves. And I agree with you though, I think that it’s definitely shown that it can be effective, if done correctly. And I also agree that I don’t think that every company everywhere is now going to move to 100%
05:00
remote. I know, with the business I work for now, it’s just not possible, we have some functions that just have to be done in the office. And of course, you would miss some of that in house collaboration it into 100% remote workforce, but the flexibility that it’s given people, and like I said, I think it’s so empowering. And I think it’s important, especially as we move into more technology driven society. So I think that, I agree that I think that it’s a huge benefit to both the employer and our employees, to let them know that there’s trust and that it can be done.
05:38
So, Tiffany, I know, you mentioned that some people can work from home, some are work remote, some can’t, how is your company evaluating whether a position could be remote, or maybe it needs to be a mix of both, or maybe it can’t be remote at all, we definitely have all three. So we have people that are working 100% remotely and can do that effectively, we have people that really need to check in the office and be available, you know, for certain things in the office. And they’re doing, you know, a split of that. But we also do have positions, for example, our accounting team, what they do, they just have to do in the office equipment that they use, right? print checks, and everything, our freight audit payment, you know, work for a transportation company now, at our company. And it’s, there’s just some things that just can’t be done. I think right now, the most important thing is allowing as many people as we can to work work remotely, so that the people that have to be in the office are there’s limited exposure for them. And I think that that’s, you know, a little bit, we actually implemented our own phases, regardless of what the counties and states are doing, what we’re how we’re going to return to work. And that’s the we’re still in phase one. I mean, we’re trying to keep that at 25% in our offices, because those people have to be there. So obviously, there’s some perks, sometimes they get lunches and things like that. But um, you know, unfortunately, we are not in the position to have 100% remote, but just doing everything we can to support them. And of course, there’s a lot of flexibility there. You know, they have school aged children, and things like that we’re working with them as much as possible.
07:21
So you bring up something very interesting, if I could jump in
07:26
every company is going to be different. The whole concept of childcare, or I might add eldercare, those are playing into whether or not people can be remote not because, I mean, this is war. But now, there’s this disconnect between whether or not kids are going back to school or being at home, and remote. And parents being stuck, they want to go back to work, they want to be physically in the office, but they might not be able to because their kid is homeschool. Because the the locality my locality, we’re not going to be going back to the classrooms until November 9, because of our numbers, and our numbers are actually pretty good. So there’s a lot of different factors going on. The flexibility is is has got to be mandatory. I think the 25% is admirable that you’re even trying to do that. I think it’s also teaching organizations, what really can be remote, and what can’t what needs to be in the office.
08:32
Not to pick on you, Tiffany, but you brought up something very interesting that people have to be in the office to do certain accounting functions, writing checks and such an actual you know, I don’t need to point it out. But all of that can eventually be automated, and probably wind up saving the company money by automating it. So this is sort of a, it opens the door to examining questions that your company may not have thought to look out for. But that’s a lot of companies out there like that. So there’s a lot of silver linings here. We don’t want to have been working from home or stay at home for six months. But there’s a lot of interesting opportunities that companies are now realizing they could look at and not perish while they’re while they’re examining those things. Right. I agree. And I think that you make an excellent point when we were looking at the return to work phases and how that would look. And I mean,
09:27
just pretty much just assumed immediately, you know, this is just something we can do right now. But I think in doing that and making sure like I said everyone else that can work remotely protecting this people as much as possible. But I agree it’s bringing up conversations that we need to evolve. We need to make sure that if for some reason God forbid this happens again, and you know, two or three years or hopefully not ever but more prepared. We know we can only make improvements. We can only move forward but I agree. I think
10:00
Like you said, it’s just initiating a lot of conversations and what can we do better, and what worked well, and I think, you know, just to kind of dive deeper into the people that have school aged children at home, and like you said elderly care, one of the things that we did, we’re not bringing those individuals. Phase three. So 200% of the ey Fs phase,
10:24
we’re, we’re letting them you know, work from home and making it work regardless of what their function is. So I’m including individuals that live with frontline health care workers, and to limit the cross contamination and exposure to those people and people with underlying conditions. So those those individuals and our teammates will not be required to even think about coming back to the office until everything reopened. So I think that it’s important. That’s another thing to say, like, Hey, we care about you, we recognize you’re in this category. And, you know, individuals that live with frontline health care workers, that’s just keeping as safe as possible at this point, or, you know, keeping the company safe. Because, you know, those are the people that are exposed to it, or you know, if they have COVID patients and things, so I’m just really breaking it down and what made sense. But if God forbid, this happens in the future, we will know what we need to do better. And it’s starting those conversations now.
11:24
I think the biggest,
11:26
I think flexibility is one of the biggest concerns in HR and for employers across the country right now. Because the biggest concern right now, I believe, is if they do have school aged children that are at home, how do you make the employee schedules flexible enough to where they can still accomplish their tasks? And at the same time, assist the children with the homeschooling? How do you how you do that flexible scheduling, I think that’s where a lot of people are.
11:52
Right. And on that point, I think that this is the greatest statement against nine to five that we’ve ever had. It’s convinced many, many employers that the job needs to get done, if you go back to the whole concept of exempt versus non exempt, what is exempt them from overtime, getting paid for the job, you do not the hour work. And that’s really important. You’re working, looking at our you’re looking at a job and you’re saying get it done, I don’t care where you get it done, I don’t care when you get it done. Get it done, this is what I need you to get done the employer so it can get done. o’clock at night, it can get done at 11 o’clock at night, it can get done on a Saturday afternoon or Sunday morning, as long as you do what I need you to do. And that’s what we’ve been railing for years about measuring productivity on getting the job done, not necessarily showing up and sitting there and looking pretty for eight hours a day and not necessarily getting anything done. And a lot of people do that. And if this really shines a light on it, it changes the whole dynamic and makes maybe it makes excuse me, maybe it makes the world think in terms of measuring on productivity as it should have been, whether personally or not.
13:19
Right? I agree to I think that there are some positions that are metric driven. So you already have those in place of I just need to get this done on, you know, in this amount of time. But I also, when you first ask the question, I was thinking my first response in my head was it depends, which is something that keeps us brought up before about any HR question. Because it’s all up to me, I sometimes it truly is just case by case basis, you want to take care of your people. And some people may have other support at their house, they may have family or friends and things like that. But there are those individuals that don’t have anyone out those people, that’s when you take that it’s not black and white anymore, you take those, you know, extensive measures to help them out. Because if they’re a good employee and a good performer, you obviously want to do everything you can to keep them to make them comfortable to make sure that they feel valued. And that’s something so small that the company can do just to do a little bit extra for that person to make them see we’re doing what we can because we know that you work hard for us. So I just I in my head, my brain started robbing or like all the individual cases, and obviously being fair, but not necessarily one size doesn’t fit all. So one person situation and solution will be so different from somebody else’s.
14:42
I really agree with that. I guess the biggest one thing I’m curious of and I’d love to hear your opinions is Yeah, how are you fair? And at the same time? judging whether someone has a flexible schedule one doesn’t, based on their home life. How do you do
15:00
do that in a fair way, because they could have the same job, same tasks that they need to accomplish. But then one is required to work certain hours during the day and one is not. So how do you how do you approach that so that it does feel fair for everybody.
15:15
I would suggest that everyone has the option of the flexible schedule, some people just may not need it.
15:22
You know, if I, if it’s a J, ob, look, I’m passionate about what I do, I don’t look at what I do as a J. ob, I look at it as a lifestyle choice. But some people it’s a jam. And if they get it done, if they can get their whole job done in four hours, you know, between nine and one 9pm, well, then there’s, that’s thrilling, that’s great, then they can spend 2020 hours a day, having fun, whatever. But other people may need to spread it out to accommodate childcare, eldercare, other issues going on in the house, other issues going on in their lives, whatever.
15:57
But everybody who has that particular job has the option,
16:03
or should have the option, as Tiffany’s pointing out of spreading it out two times when it makes sense for them. When they can provide the same productivity. Maybe it’s a different hours a day. Now some jobs, of course, aren’t like that assembly line jobs or customer service, telephone, answering jobs.
16:22
There are certain times when you want to be flexible, but might not necessarily be able to, hey, the job is 6am to 2pm. On the phone answering customer service calls from clients, can you do it? If you can’t? You can?
16:37
Maybe there are other things we can have you do. But there are some jobs that don’t have that flexibility. Employers just need to make sure that they define those jobs carefully. Because most jobs are
16:52
there always another time. So I’m sorry, if I think I Oh, no, you’re fine. I just wanted to expand on that a little bit, I think that
17:02
that’s where it comes into play to,
17:05
to separate the position from the person. So if you’re offering flexible schedule, that means that job can do that, that means everyone in that position should be offered the same. And that is the only way to be fair. But if you have an individual that, you know, in my mind, when I brought up that example, it was someone you know, not in the same position two completely different departments and everything. And I think that in those cases, this position might be there might be more flexibility to it, where you can offer those things. But if someone else needs it in that moment, you try to make it work. I mean, we, I think if you’re trying and you’re showing effort, because that’s what we expect from our employees, that’s what they want to see from us. So if you just if they’re coming to you with a special blessing, this is the position I’m in. And if you immediately say, Nope, it’s in our policy that we said, you know, we’re not doing this, not only does that show them, I don’t matter to you, but it’s so I mean, you’re really backing yourself in a corner there where you’re not going to be able to be fair and consistent with the next person because you know, you like them better, or you know what I mean? So just, I think that it’s so important to separate the person and the position. And again, if it’s something you’re offering to, if this position is eligible for this benefit, or this flexibility, every person in that role should have that same benefit. 100% agreed. I agree. I think that’s a good way to make it fair, I going going towards that flexible scheduling, you know, from an employer, seeing it from the employees perspective, and I know this isn’t specifically related to their job, but a lot of people do enjoy their job, because of the people they work with. And the people they get to see every day they do become friends with those people, and they enjoy going in, because they get to see everyone. So with the flexible scheduling with the working remote, I mean, how do you make up for that loss? And how do you and honestly, I think a lot of employers now are choosing that mix schedule of coming in a couple days a week and working remote just so they can have that social interaction. So So how do you make them happy as far as socially and mentally when this witness remote environments going on?
19:25
And why I think that
19:29
so I’m a big fan of bought, like right now we’re having conversation. We’re all in completely different places. And and you know, we’re connected in that way. And I know it’s not the same as in person. But to me, so many people are utilizing the virtual meetings. I think it’s so important for companies and organizations to offer some sort of communication tool, whether you know it so it has that ability to connect that way. I agree that I’ve even seen a lot of polls on LinkedIn where people are like, would you prefer percent work remote or 100% return
20:00
in the office are a mix of both. And most of the time, the the primary answers and mix of both and quite frankly, mine is to, I think that there are days where I am so productive because it’s just me knocking things out at my house. But I do miss that interaction I miss being able to walk around and ask people how they’re doing. And I think it’s,
20:21
I think that it’s a it’s a little disadvantage, just from an HR professional, because that’s part of what we do we connect with people who build relationships with people so that way, when you know, things come up, they know they already know us, you know, this, the first time they’re talking to us is not something bad or something benefit related or anything like that, we’re Our job is to try to connect with as many people as possible. And the company I work for now we have remote locate work, we have other locations outside of the corporate headquarters office and hire remote people. And so we already have some experience with having to engage you know, those individuals and lagenda few things to do that we have our CEO and and VP of HR have made videos to address all of our employees with where we’re at with the return to work planning, which I think has been so helpful to see that support from the top. And we have actually made several videos of and asking for people to send in pictures. A lot of the spring graduates were unable to have spring ceremonies. And so we asked for people to send in pictures. And we posted in our social media page and and people sending in pictures of their kids. And I actually graduated, so I got to be part of it too. And it was really cool, though, because people in our New York office were like you graduated. That’s so cool. And it’s just to have that connection. We also asked recently, people for pictures of their pets, like show us who’s keeping you company at home. And I was amazed when we sent that video out how many people sent email saying this made my day just to feel connected in some way. So I think that those little things that don’t cost anything can end up being the most impactful things that you can do for people. But obviously, the test is just in person talking to someone. And but the first time that happens, people are gonna have to tell me that Be quiet, because I’m gonna be so excited to be able to be around other people again, but but I think that just doing everything you can to stay connected is just so important.
22:24
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And I could echo your words, while I had to continue. Not only do I
22:32
do human resources for floss bar, but I also run a rather large networking group for Human Resources practitioners, which is what brought us together I believe, and it in some ways, it’s killing me that all of our events are virtual. I’m a shaken, some babies kind of guy, I like to be in person. I’m a big hugger, I hug everybody.
22:55
So yeah, I’m gonna kind of lose my marbles when we finally get back, you know, whenever that is, and you know, and I get to see people and be in a place with them.
23:05
But it’s critically important to do things that keep people talking, and keep people learning about each other, not just, hey, these two people do this function, or they do this function in the company, but who they are and what they are personally.
23:21
Before pandemic started, people hated video conferencing. Nobody even knew what zoom was except for college students. And and people were uncomfortable in front of cameras. And everybody had to have that plain background and they were worried about what they wore and all that stuff. Now.
23:41
Nobody cares if your cat walks across the picture. In fact, they encourage it.
23:46
Right? If a kid walking on a four year old kid walks in and says hello to the to the everybody on the screen. We all love it for dressing in sweat suits and sweat pants and stuff like that. If they’re showing pants. They’re there. They’re not as worried about what they wear and what’s in the background. There. It’s we’re learning about how we live. We’re learning. That’s my kitchen behind me, I don’t care.
24:12
And nobody seems to mind that sort of thing as long as it isn’t overly cluttered. I mean, you want to be professional, reasonable.
24:20
But it’s so lowered the barriers, the all the discomfort. And by the way, the job seekers in particular who were being forced to do video interviews before the pandemic, they have no excuse now, neither neither pros at it because they’re doing this all the time. So everybody’s up to date on this sort of thing. And we’re all much more comfortable in front of a camera. Talk about a silver lining. It’s true. The companies themselves to get back to the question is to utilize what we have at our disposal. Do things to make sure that we humanize each other and build those relationships even if they are through technology. Tiffany but all the things
25:00
You describe it sounds like you’re doing a fabulous job. Absolutely. Hats off to you. Thank you. It’s, you know, a lot of people and honestly, I think that suggestion came from one of our employees, too. Can we celebrate this? And we’re like, Yes, absolutely. Let’s do it. So it just I agree with you 1,000%. But I think it not only humanizes it mobilizes us in, you know,
25:26
you seeing C suite executives and their backgrounds and their kitchen, like just on a sweatshirt, I mean, it’s just so different now. And it just, it makes us all a little bit more approachable. Even though it’s virtual, at least, I think that there’s been a lot of benefits to, like use that silver lining. And obviously, none of us wish this to happen. But maybe it will push us to be more comfortable in a lot of ways that we weren’t.
25:51
And I think this goes back to what Keith said, I mean, I think for an employer to be successful in this remote environment, is to keep in mind that it’s not just a job for a lot of people with their life. I mean, a lot of their a lot of their career also includes their social, their groups of friends. And
26:13
even though the employer is their main concern is the business. I mean, it should also be just as much as the happiness and mental health of the employees, which, you know, like it or not, their job is just as important as your lifestyle. And I think realistically,
26:35
I think realistically now that we have the technology to work remote, the office space for quite a while has been there just because of that, wanting to be social, keeping people engaged with each other, we didn’t we have we’ve for a while have not needed, we really didn’t need the office space for a lot of tasks to be done. These people are able to have that technology at home. I think that’s why a lot of employers have kept their office space for that in person interaction less for the fact of accomplishing tasks. But you know, correct me if you disagree, but that’s just what the way I see it is this could have been done a long time ago.
27:13
Yeah. That goes without saying, but I don’t want to drag this into a negative territory. Yes, I wrote something on somebody. So LinkedIn post a couple of days ago, that apparently everybody finds to be profound. And that is
27:29
they don’t put up a traffic light at an intersection unless somebody dies.
27:34
They don’t.
27:36
In the same sense, we didn’t think that people could work remotely until 180,000 people died because it was a pandemic.
27:46
We don’t necessarily take actions until we’re forced to do it until human lives
27:53
are sometimes sacrificed.
27:56
You know, here I am dragging this pole of cloud over our congress really dark. I don’t want to do that. But but it’s a valid point is he doesn’t let go of old practices, until they’re almost forced to do it. Well, I keep talking about silver linings. And this is a business community was forced to examine and look straight into the face of remote work and how more things can be done without being in the office. And yet, I think that the business community wouldn’t let go and would drag everybody back to the office until they look at that, that bill they get for the real estate they’re using. And they for the last six months, I’ve been paying his big bill. You know, most of that works been getting done. In fact, a lot of it’s been getting and we learned a lot of new things. I’ve been paying this insane bill for my real estate, why am I doing that? And that is what’s going to push If you ask me, that’s what’s gonna push the business community to realizing that it makes sense to send some people off and to shrink the amount of real estate that they are leasing, which most people most organizations lease, they don’t buy.
29:07
It makes makes a lot more sense to them, they finally have been forced into that analysis that we you and the three of us could have told them 30 years ago, or more. Well, now we’re here. Now it makes sense. And I think that’s that’s the thing that’s going to push everybody over the edge. And we’re going to have much more flexible schedules. In many industries, probably not all of them, but many of them.
29:36
I would like to add to their there is something to be said, I know we’ve brought it up before but just about that in person collaboration and different teams being able to partner on projects together in person. It’s just it’s a different flow. I think sometimes I’m not saying it can’t be done but I just wanted to point that out because I know that is that is a big reason why some people still
30:00
Do have offices too, because I think before they thought that it couldn’t be done. But even now that it can be they don’t want it to take away from, you know, especially when you’re training new people and things like that you want them to be in that environment where they feel like, Hey, you can just get up and ask and right now I feel like, but the more comfortable you get with reaching out virtually, and communicating and things like that, it might change. But I just, I think that that’s a big reason why the organization I work for now, didn’t really want to offer it, even before all this happened, just because they that the fear of losing some of that collaboration. So
30:39
I would suggest that no one thinks that the office space should go away. No one, no one is suggesting, you are suggesting
30:47
that we should get rid of offices always work from home, there is such a value. And collaboration there is especially at the beginning of employment.
30:57
But
30:59
when people are up and running and experience to lessen the amount of time that they’re in the office can only benefit the individual. And the company is here in the northeast, I’m 50 miles outside of New York City.
31:16
I am when instead of going to New York every day, and then coming back, which is, you know, it’s typically we’re an hour and a half each weighs about 15 hours a week. No, by the way, I am probably working that time from home instead.
31:33
So the amount of collaboration has been collaboration, the amount of time that productivity that I’ve put forward increases by that amount.
31:43
And that used to be built into my work week, but no man and I don’t even go into the office every day. I mean, there’s so many people who I know in this area of Jersey, where I live, that commute an insane amount of time, hour, hour and a half, two hours each way.
32:00
Instead, they’re getting the same time they’re doing, they’re working from the time they would have gotten on the bus or the train or whatever, you know, into the car. And then they’re not shutting it off, we had a conversation offline about how the signal, the psychological, when to start working today and when to stop by getting into your mode of transportation, and then getting into it at the end of the day, we don’t get into the mode of transportation, so our signals are gone.
32:29
Gone, productivity is through the roof, in some cases, because of that.
32:34
And it’s worse should be
32:38
we should absolutely be thrilled. Mass Transportation Systems probably aren’t very happy, but the employers are gonna be thrilled. Yeah, I think that another thing too, is just to make sure that there is still that work life balance. And it’s so important and mostly driven by the employees, but and I’ve seen a lot of like meetings and things that have come up that says it’s no longer working from home, it’s living at work. So I think that it’s so important to make sure that you’re not free, you’re not, you know, making it a requirement. Obviously, I know that you can make it a requirement without saying that it’s a requirement as a leader and I know that, but I think that, you know, employees really need to make sure they’re still keeping that balance and and, and leaders making sure that they understand that that balance needs to exist, because that’s so unhealthy to not be able to you know, and I’ve seen so many videos that people like, Alright, time my day is over, and they shut their laptop and they turn and watch TV, you know, it just, um, but I that closure in that time, like okay, this is now my time is important for their for their mental health and well being. I personally cannot speak to that, because I used to read, everything I did was in person, my meetings, any presentations, anything I did was in person. And that time between the transportation to each destination, just going out to lunch with people that was part of the most enjoy some of the most enjoyable part of my day, getting that time to socialize and kind of relax. And, you know, even though I’m at work, I’m also still not just working on it and all by myself. And now I’ve noticed that they’re almost the expectation of completing more is just it’s there because I’m by my computer, not necessarily by an employer, but just for myself. I, I expect to complete more and I end up doing more, because it’s right there in front of me. And it’s so easy to access. But I have honestly lost a lot of that work life balance because it’s very, it’s difficult to do it on your own. A lot of people I don’t even think realize this, but they had that work life balance because of what Keith said they had a time that they had to arrive at a time that they left and they were forced to have that work life
35:00
bounce. A lot of people don’t know how to do it without that being forced to start and stop time. Well, let me, let me let you feel a little bit better about what she just said, I’m going to go back to a conversation I had about 20 years ago with a guy I was working for back then this guy named Robert Blinken, who ran the teleconferencing company I was the HR director for at the time. And he said something very profound. And obviously, this is 20 years before the pandemic, and 20 years before we were forced to look at work from home and all that. But he said to me,
35:33
you’re, it’s not a job. It’s a lifestyle choice. When you join an organization, you’re choosing the lifestyle you’re going to follow, if you’re passionate about what you do. And I’ve gotten to know both of you a little bit. And I think that you’re both extremely passionate about what you do, which is why I think that we click is a group.
35:55
And as a lifestyle choice,
35:59
you’re not necessarily working every single minute from 8am to 6pm.
36:03
You’re working some of the time you’re doing other things, some of the time you’re
36:09
producing some of the time you’re socializing, some of the time, the lines may have blurred as to when to start and stop.
36:18
But we also don’t feel the pressure necessarily to produce every single minute of the day anymore. Because we know we’re putting in what seems to be that extra time.
36:30
I wouldn’t necessarily feel bad about it. Because let’s face it, I like what I’ve come to know to have you. You work 24 seven, you don’t actually
36:41
like that, too. I’m always thinking about it. But I have a lot of fun as well on the way.
36:49
And I think I agree with that. Yeah, it’s the difference in it being a job for someone versus being their lifestyle and passion, I think.
36:59
And there are too many people out there who it is a j ob for. But hopefully this shines a light on some of that and helps them toward something that might be a bit more passionate for them.
37:10
So last question for you. I do feel like a lot of employers don’t know how to create that environment that’s not just based around work. Right now. They’ve never really had to do it before it created itself. before. I What do you have any suggestions on how an employer or HR team can find good, like the creative, creative ways, like you were mentioning Tiffany, about the sending in the pictures of the dog that came from an employee? So do you feel like asking the employees is really the best way right now to figure out what’s gonna create that work life balance for them when they’re all remote.
37:49
I don’t, I don’t think it hurts. I mean, if you if you want information, go to the source and figure out what they need. I think that we can only do so much we’re all different. We all have different things that that are, you know, needs and wants in our lives. But I think from an employer’s point of view, you’re listening to your team. I know, you know, people, there’s a mixed feeling about suggestion boxes or comment boxes and things like that. But I think that just listening, I mean, it’s
38:20
it’s such a powerful thing to to make someone feel like, okay, you know, yeah, we get 1000s of emails a week, I mean, you know, probably just sitting here I, you know, probably 1550 new emails, but, but just that you took the time you did and, and they’re not small things. I mean, it took time to make videos and you know, HR work with marketing and the the graduate one was actually the one that came from our employee, the the dog and, or the pet picture, it actually came from our CEO. And I just think that and that’s, that’s really cool too, and, and to just be able to have someone in our leadership position that supports those types of things. And
39:03
like I mentioned, the video about keeping transparent of where we are. And it just, it makes people feel connected right now when they when they don’t on a daily basis. And that is something it’s hard to navigate through. But I don’t think it hurts to ask I think, if you want to know what people need and want, even just to what can we do to support you right now. I mean, when we first went to remote work, we sent out trainings that we thought would be helpful to our managers and people that have never been in that situation before. immediate feedback. This was helpful, like I’m in uncharted territory right now. And I think that it’s those little things that we can do, not only for our employees and our leaders, but from an HR perspective. I mean, you know, we’re always trying to do everything we can to stay connected, but it’s important for us to feel that way to, you know, with with our employees and with our own team. So, I’m sorry, I just went on a little rant there, but I think it’d be really cool to have
40:00
ask them, What do you need from us right now? What What can I Fs? Or what what can our company do for you, that would be helpful and supportive and, and just wanted to plug this in there too. I know, this might be just an understood thing. But it’s important to also remind people about the EAP programs that they have available to them, because people are in situations they’ve never been in before. I know that
40:25
not to get dark either. But a lot of domestic violence cases have increased and things like that, that we may not ever, we never know what people are really going through. So to just offer all of the resources that we can and let them pick and choose what works best for them, I think is the best thing that we can do right now.
40:44
You
40:46
Firstly, this is my chance to say ditto. Yeah, absolutely. And we’re not going to go into ghosts. If you haven’t seen the movie goes to go see it? Did Oh, absolutely. But
40:59
I’ve had a pretty long career. I’m not ancient, but I’ve been around for a while. And I’ve worked for a lot of different companies. I was a consultant for a dozen years, until just a few years ago.
41:12
I’ve interviewed in a lot of places. And one of the things that I always talk about in interviewing, I always ask the same question of them is best.
41:21
As an HR practitioner, I could say, oh, employee relations, or benefits or compensation or recruiting? I’ve never ever said that. The answer I always say, indicate
41:33
I, I know how to communicate, I know how to put myself in the shoes of someone else and get people to understand each other and hear each other through each other’s eyes, not their own eyes. Communication is so important, you know, Tiffany, you were talking about listening, listening is the foundation of every job, not just HR.
41:59
The way we get through this is to listen to each other, which unfortunately, in the national picture here, right now, we’re not very good at, not to go off in that realm. But we are where we listening is how we succeed.
42:15
Businesses are learning I think through the pandemic, how to listen more to their employees, and how to understand what do they need and what they want a lot more. And they’re willing to put their suggestions to use a lot more in these situations, again, perhaps,
42:36
to, to the issues, to to what’s happening.
42:41
When we listen to each other, and when we hear each other, which are two different skills, as I’m constantly reminded,
42:50
we
42:52
get more things done.
42:54
And and clearly at afms. Tiffany, wonderful job at it at floss bar, whether it’s our
43:03
COVID services that we provide, or the dental services that we provide. We start every conversation with a client by saying, What do you need? Tell us what you need. We don’t just say, Oh, this is what we got. Let me sell it to you. We really every conversation starts with what’s going on in your company? What do you need? What would help you? And what we do may not help every company by? No, certainly not. But
43:28
more conversations started like that internally, I think that companies would be far more successful. Listening is absolutely
43:36
paramount building block to every successful story.
43:41
And every successful relationship. I think that that’s a different podcast behave.
43:48
relationship is like employee employer relationship. I think that I mean, like you said, I you know, HR is a representative of the company, but also the people. And I think that we’re in a very unique position in that way where we can be an advocate and have a voice if you are fortunate enough to have a leadership that supports that, or supports HR the way that it should. And I also I start off my conversations with if an employee comes to me with an issue or even to vent or anything, I always say what do you need? What can What can I do? What do you want from me so that way, the expectations are clear where I’m not guessing. And I think that that is when 1,000% and listening to listen not listening to respond, listen To hear them listen to understand their situation, and being empathetic to it and I think that’s the best thing we can do right now. Just with everyone is an unchartered territory. And I know people are so sick of hearing unprecedented times. I’ve seen also things like I just miss precedent and times like I just missed normal. But I think that like I agree with you. I think listening is just such a powerful
45:00
that not everyone uses.
45:03
The real
45:07
results will be with this going forward.
45:11
It’s not how we’re reacting to it now because we’re, you know, we’re reacting to a situation or
45:18
putting out a fire. But how do we handle after the pandemic is over?
45:25
What will that be like? And how many companies will learn good lessons and implement effective
45:33
ways of doing business going forward?
45:38
And I think what I’ve learned for both of you on this conversation is that it almost sounds like the key to being a successful employer, retaining your employees and keeping them happy is to almost treat them right now. It really should be all the time, same way you would treat your clients, because they kind of aren’t your clients, or they’re your internal clients. Absolutely. Yeah.
46:01
Well,
46:03
there’s a very, that’s a very interesting point you make we we, and it’s the tie between what I think is HR and marketing, we present the accompany to potential clients in a certain way, why wouldn’t we present the company to our own employees the same way? Why do why do we need a different brand, internally than we do externally? If we’re proud of what we do, we want to be successful. It should be the branding. So that to me, there’s a very close tie between marketing and HR.
46:40
Yeah.
46:43
Yeah, but that could be a whole nother podcast. I appreciate you coming on. I thought that was a lot of great information. And I really hope I think it will be a lot of helpful tips for some other HR professionals out there that might be struggling with what to do in the new workplace. So thank you for coming. And hopefully, we’ll have you back again. Thank you.
47:05
Hi, everyone. We’re back. I have Keith and Tiffany back. It’s been about four months since we last spoke up on the podcast. And the reason we came back is I just want to touch base it now that there we are in some places starting to to transition to in person workplaces. And that is something that’s going to happen in the future. I want to bring them back to get their opinions and suggestions on how we might go about doing that. So I know you both have mentioned you’re not you’re not back in person yet your workplaces correct.
47:40
Oh, our workplace was always remote to begin with, you know, circumstances remote to being with there’s a certain core of people in New York City that go to the office. But because we have people in Indiana, and we have people in South Carolina, and we have people in Florida, there’s a great contingent of the the core staff that’s all over the country anyway. And for us, we had, I think I’ve mentioned this last time, we had a percentage of employees that were brought back within phases, and then we’re still in phase two. So the maximum amount of employees that can be in office at one time is 50% of that office capacity. So but we were still not even at that point. And a lot of our offices, we don’t have, you know, only a handful of people that are reporting to the office, and then our Oregon offices is completely we’re still in phase one here.
48:28
So what are your suggestions for companies that have not begun to make that transition? And when they do, you know, what are some ideas that you have for what they should try? And maybe what may not be such a good idea as far as transitioning people back? Well, as I think you figure it out from some of our other conversations, I’m a little opinionated on that subject. But I think I’m also very practical about it. And that is that if the pandemic had been very short lived, which another discussion, we could talk all about how it should have been.
49:01
But if if it had been,
49:04
then it wouldn’t have been enough time that passed for the business world to figure out that working remotely works. But there’s no excuse and Tiffany, you’ve said it in other conversations very, very well. We’ve been at this now for a year,
49:23
or going on a year. And there’s no question that people can work remotely. We all figured it out. Now, not every business can do that. Not every job can do that. But hybrid models are in some senses mandatory because there are so many companies, some that will never go back to the office. Many, many, if not most, that are going to have hybrid models that the few companies out there that insists on everybody coming back, whether it’s in phases and stages, this that and the other thing, they’re gonna lose their employees.
49:57
their employees are gonna look at him and say, I don’t have to do this.
50:00
I can go somewhere else eventually gonna happen right away, but they’re gonna say, eventually, I don’t need to be forced to get my car or get on the train or get on the bus every day and go to your office, when I can darn well do it from home.
50:16
For those that get it, but still want to see their people and collaborate in person from time to time. Yeah, I mean, a phased in model with a hybrid model where sometimes they’re at home sometimes or at work, preferably with employee input on what they think works. I think that there’s a lot of ways to slice that cake, if you will.
50:40
But
50:43
hotelling, as we HR folks call, it makes all the sense in the world. I mean, of course, there’s a whole real estate equation to there’s no reason to have all the real estate that companies that previously had, I can talk all day, but Tiffany, please chime in. Yeah, I was just gonna say, I agree. I think, you know, one of the things we talked about last time, too, was, you know, we talked about what are the employees want and kind of more of an engagement aspect, but I think I remember saying, just ask them. So we did, we did our engagement survey, and it was a very low number of our teammates wanted to report back to the office full time. So you know, that’s something that we are trying to navigate through right now. Because as Keith said, we can no longer use the excuse, we can’t do it. If we as the company, or you know, or if other companies saying you know, we’re just not that type of company that’s going to offer an at work, that’s one thing. And I would hope that someone wouldn’t have those firm lines, because as Keith also mentioned, they may lose top talent, because other companies are offering that now, at least a hybrid version. So, you know, I think it’s important to not only listen to the people and ask them what they want, but once you have that information, create a plan that works best for, you know, the majority of the company, some physicians might have a harder time with that, you know, there might have these massive scanners that they work on all day, and they can’t take those home. But what can you do to create that flexible schedule to where they’ve got that, you know, balance that other people can have to and a remote work.
52:14
I think that also, this is going to become a larger part of I mean, obviously recruiting retainment and the the competitive strategies that companies use when it comes to hiring because I think that for a lot of candidates, their top priorities were well, who’s going to pay me the most money, and then who has the best benefits, but now, and it wasn’t really, you know, expected to be able to work from home. But I think now this is going to fall into those top priorities may be even more so than salary and benefits. Because I think a lot of people have decided that they only want to work from home, or they only want to work in an office after this experience. So I do think it’s going to be a kind of like a deal breaker for a lot of
52:59
candidates if you’re not willing to do one or the other. But the fact that you have a mix is hard. You’ve got a lot of companies that have
53:08
that are based in urban areas. And you have a tremendous amount of people and I speak from the New York City experience, because that’s what I’m a tremendous amount of people who during the pandemic have gotten out of Dodge, they’ve literally sold their place, given up their lease, whatever and moved away. Maybe that was a little bit short term thinking but they don’t want to be in an urban area where they’re more prone to be exposed to pandemic related issues.
53:36
This is probably be shaped our society. So when we go back to anything that vaguely resembles normal, you know, essentially, when the pandemic is supposedly under control, hopefully soon.
53:49
The people don’t live in the same places and the migration in this country has been enormous. So what are the companies that are in the urban areas going to do? They have a lot less people to choose from in New York, and Chicago, and Los Angeles, Miami, Houston. People got out of there.
54:09
New York is a ghost town in somewhere. So I there’s a lot of people left, don’t get me wrong. It’s not really ghost
54:14
hunters, a lot less people 10s of 1000s of people have left New York and are not coming back.
54:22
Right, the reverse migration to get people back into the cities is going to take years. So in the meantime.
54:30
Yeah. And I think that also, a lot of people have seen that they can work for these companies in the larger metropolitan areas, have that higher salary and live outside and essentially, you know, have more money to spend because they’re spending less on the cost of living is lower outside of these cities. Well, and there’s employer benefits to it too. I mean, I know either you self consider work life balance, but everybody that I talked to that prefers working for
55:00
Home, also mentioned how much more work they can get done. Because they’re not spending, you know, an hour and a half. And it’s not, it’s not just about getting ready or the commute, it’s also just the considerations, you have to have a free walk out of your front door. So you have to get up early to say, like, you know, make my lunch, make sure I have all my snacks, which is me, you know, make sure that you have, because, because then you’re gone for the day, you know, so but but that’s the thing I’m hearing from the most is that they’re just they’re more productive working from home. So that’s not just a benefit to them. But obviously, the company’s benefiting from that as well. It’s something that we know we talked about four months ago, because I had already started recognizing it was really starting to become a topic is that the boundaries of when to start and stop working, disappears way back when they disappeared, somewhere around May or June, people didn’t have that the signal community to tell them when to start or stop working. Don’t stop. So the intelligent companies out there should be all about, oh, wow, that’s pretty awesome. I get 12 hours of work. People don’t even know their work. And it’s great productivity.
56:07
It’s not really healthy thing. But the when companies want productivity as opposed to necessarily health, they that’s a great approach for them. And the smart companies are picking up on it. But they’re also I think being savvy, and
56:22
instead of compacting your time into nine to five, now people are working eight to eight, but they’re not as wired about you being on task all 12 of those hours, as long as you give them the same kind of productivity that you did previously.
56:41
Yeah, no, one thing. Oh, sorry. Oh, no, just agreeing.
56:47
One thing that I was thinking about is these companies that have decided not to go back in person not to have office space. One thing I think that they’re overlooking, or at least from what I’ve heard, are some are overlooking is the fact that, okay, yes, that’s great that you’re gonna save money on real estate and rent and having these office spaces, but the employees are going to spend more money on electricity and home office materials and food at home that they have. I mean, there’s a lot of extra expenses that come from working at home that I fit. I think that yes, the employer saving, but I mean, how do you feel? Do you think the employer should be using some of that cost savings to assist with the extra money that employees are gonna have to spend to work from home?
57:35
You could make that argument. But I think most companies would call bs on that.
57:43
Houses use electricity, whether people are home or not, yeah, that thermostat might be set slightly different in your computer that doesn’t use a whole lot of power is going to be on a lot more. There’s going to be conversations on both sides, that people employees are going to want to talk about reimbursements for internet connectivity, and phones, like that. But and employers are gonna look back at you and say, like, you know, you’re not spending your hundreds of dollars a month or more. I used to spend $2,000 a month plus on my commute back and forth to New York City. I know that grossed a few guys out. But that’s reality in this area of the country.
58:24
That’s, that’s an insane amount. And so you know, the company, if I’m hearing a lot of companies talk about
58:32
eventually lowering the set. Because there are there’s there’s a logic behind it. That grosses me out. The, the idea of Well, Mr. Bogan, you’re spending
58:45
too doing let’s say, what is that $24,000? Less a year on your commute?
58:50
Why do we have to pay as much? Yeah, I can see. I think it’s a crock. Because they were paying me for my productivity. And they didn’t care about my commute. And I’m not talking about my company, philosopher, philosophers. Awesome. Don’t get me wrong. I’ll talk about
59:05
companies in general pay people for what they do not necessarily for. And then and then they’ll look at you and say that you chose to live where you’re living, so the commutes on you. So they can’t use the argument return in reversal? Can they actually, you know, that’ll come up? I’m telling you, they’ll be companies? No, I’ve heard that. I’ve heard that people are looking at reducing, because like you said, a lot of people are leaving their urban areas. So they’re even saying, Okay, well, cost of living Breyer at the market composites of where your new location is isn’t as high as where you were before. But then the argument could be made, okay, but I don’t have an office to go to. So I have to use my cell phone for business calls. I have to use, you know, my internet and or have a certain speed to be able to do zoom calls and things like that. So I think, you know, like you said argument could go either way, but I’ve heard that as companies considering lowering salaries. Let me let me throw an argument out there that I want to give everybody in
1:00:00
bison, I want the company to lower my wage $3,000 a year and then reimburse my phone and my internet, my power and all that sort of thing by $3,000 to balance it. And everybody should be making that argument that our company, why? Because reimbursed, monies aren’t taxed.
1:00:19
That’s true. So you can lower my wage by $3,000. Give me the $3,000 reimbursement. I’m actually making more money that way. And the cut, but I’m paying less taxes. So keep your opinion is that they should reimburse for those home office materials and card. We have a limited amount of time. That’s a whole different conversation. And there, you know, like everything else in HR, that’s it depends. There are plenty of cases where that makes perfect sense to reimburse that sort of thing. Plenty of cases where it doesn’t, and plenty of cases probably where it by law should be required. But we have a lot of minutia to go through on that one.
1:01:01
Do you agree Tiffany? My answer is in general, yes. But it depends on the situation. That’s why people hate HR. Our answer is always it depends. It depends.