Performance Management

Resourceful Humans: Performance Management

Wed, 2/24 10:24PM • 1:03:55
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
employee, performance management, manager, performance, people, job, managing, pandemic, company, person, hr, work, office, anthony, home, expectations, year, meeting, employer, questions

00:05
Welcome to resourceful humans. I’m your host, Corey haber. And today I have Brenda and Anthony with me, both very, very experienced in HR. And we’re going to hear from them their opinions or tips just, and also things that we can do it during this pandemic time in the remote world is in regards to performance management, which I know is something that a lot of people are struggling with, because the remote world is very new for a lot of businesses and employers. So thanks for coming on today. You guys. I’m excited to have you. Thanks for having me, Cory, excited to be here. Thank you, Cory.

00:44
You’re welcome. So, you know, let’s get started. And I’m gonna I have a question. I really just am anxious to hear what you guys have to say about it. But as far as performance management,

01:00
how do you? How do you feel managers or HR professionals are handling performance management or performance issues in terms of monitoring the performance right now, when while their employees are working remote without being micro managers?

01:19
So Anthony might answer that first, or I could start.

01:24
So my experience since COVID, 19, started back in March, mid March.

01:31
You know, it was a little bit of a struggle in the beginning with managing poor performers. And really, there wasn’t a lot of activity going on. At that point, we were kind of trying to give the employees the benefit of the doubt.

01:45
At the same time trying to get as much out put, while we were trying to get used to work into the home and dealing with the pandemic, and that sort of thing. Now I work in a in a very diverse work area, which is manufacturing and office work. So was bit of struggle with people being at home, and then going into the manufacturing site here in there, as well as people working from home. So as we got a few months into it, into the pandemic, things started to kind of normalize, where people were more used to work in the home on a daily basis, as well as doing those various shifts on the manufacturing side. So the managing of the performance did get a little easier.

02:31
And we resumed putting, you know, performance plans and coaching, formalized coaching and that sort of thing. With the employees, I didn’t really come into any situations where managers were micromanaging their employees, of course, there was a totally different dynamic with the way they, they had to interact with the employee, such as WebEx, or Skype or over the phone, as opposed to just stopping by their desk, which is typical.

02:59
So there, there’s a little more work on both the manager and the employees part to get the communication going. So, so there was that part of it. But again, as as time went on, people got used to it, the man who’s got used to the employees got used to it. And we did, you know, as we did start seeing performance issues, whether it was in the sales force, not, you know, people not being their, their, their sales budgets, or whether it was in the manufacturing area.

03:29
It was it was, again, we resumed the performance plans, and the coaching and that sort of thing. And we kind of tailored those performance plans to fit the issue of COVID-19.

03:42
So give me an example. So normally, in our Salesforce, we tend to make sales calls, meeting visits to, to potential customers,

03:52
vendors, that kind of thing. And as we, as we found out, you know, some people were not being those expectations, some people were really being those expectations, they found ways to use the technology available to to make those calls and to get those potential sales.

04:08
But for the ones who didn’t unfortunately, you know, we did kind of tailor their performance plans for the COVID-19. So we would use certain words, like, you know, to utilize the technology

04:22
to make those calls. So that’s really been my, my experience with performance issues

04:28
in this pandemic since March.

04:33
Anthony, I mean, it seems like I’ve been exposed to a different type of experience where some of the folks that I’ve been in touch with don’t have experience in remote workforce, right they’re they’re actually experienced something the complete opposite where there are having to choose. Let’s talk about technology, right? They something that wasn’t in the budget before and now they have to kind of figure out how to provide technology Wi Fi laptops,

05:00
to their employees. For a long time, I heard Oh, well, my, my Internet’s down or my, my boy couldn’t access her, her or his laptop, whatever the case may be. And so I think that for those who are not accustomed to this, they’re going to see some challenges and still up ahead, when this is going to become the new norm. What I am finding, though, which I’m liking is that before, where they thought it wasn’t possible to have a remote workforce, now they’re understanding that they can.

05:36
And I’ve also heard, where, oh, my gosh, this is something where we can accommodate should an employee is unable for whatever x y&z reason can come in, this is something to look at, for the future.

05:49
So it’s been quite interesting, I’ll tell you, in this remote work force management, performance management, workspace that we’re in, thanks to COVID, I think this is something that’s gonna really stick, it’s not something just for the COVID-19, I have a good feeling that this might take for a little longer, and not just because of the pandemic, but because now some folks are seeing that as a possibility to do, right. And I totally agree, and I actually should clarify a little bit, you know, my company, so if you’re in an office environment, more likely than not, you’re working some kind of virtual work, whether it’s one day a week, or two days a week, and this is all prior to COVID-19.

06:32
So most employees who are office type of employees have that access to work from home, they have the laptops, they have, they have the technology, we’re very large company,

06:46
again, the manufacturing not so much we had it, we had to deal with that

06:50
with shifting schedules, and you know, maybe two days on or two days off, and given them some kind of time to make up for the time, they normally would have been there just to keep that social distance in those COVID-19 guidelines, you know, intact depending on what state they’re in, or, you know, at the time, whatever restrictions are involved, right. Yet, some of the folks that I’ve been in touch with some employers are allowing their employees to come in, provided that they do keep the social distancing guidelines, where instead of two people cubicle or, you know, facing one another, it’s every other cubicle, you’ll see an employee there, and they’re actually going up.

07:33
Because they have received some hesitation from some employees who don’t feel comfortable coming in to the office yet. And so a common question is, Are you okay, coming in, and sometimes No, I’m not. And it could be for another a myriad of reasons where they’re not able to come in school, support, all those other things that can affect a boy’s life,

07:54
lifestyle, because of COVID. So there’s a lot to consider.

07:59
When having someone come in an employee come into the office, it might not be a possibility at all. But that has to be a conversation and see what can be accommodated. And I don’t see where we can do that.

08:15
I just really want to back it. I want to back up for just a minute, I want you to or I’d love for you to share.

08:23
As far as before pit before the pandemic, pandemic or no pandemic? What are the best ways for a manager to manage performance in general? I mean, and then we can end I’d love for us to kind of compare how it’s changed a little bit. But in general, I think it’s it would be nice to hear your opinions on how to manage performance and maybe some stories that you might have of successful performance management or even not such a successful performance management situation.

08:52
That’s a great question, Cory. I mean, one of the things that I use in the office at the company, and also, a lot of folks that I work with closely is I talk about the smart acronym, right? When managing performance, you have to make sure that whatever the project may be, whatever the tasks, maybe it has to be specific, measurable, attainable, realistic, timely, right? So in all of those things, I’ll provide an example for all of those things. So, you know, be specific. And what type of project are you having the employee work on is a cold calling, as Anthony may alluded to, for Salesforce, you know, how many people are there expecting to call whatever the case may be? Is it realistic to call 100 peoples are realistic to call 200 people, you know, you have to really kind of measure developer metrics, where these are the areas where you’re measuring employee’s performance, right.

09:56
What else is it attainable hasn’t been has had

10:00
We had experience where an employee has met these goals, and they’ve exceeded them. And so how, what was, what were their best practice? Do we have that available? Is there any documentation available that we can provide? And then add to it in terms of their experience?

10:16
Right, and so and so is it realistic? Absolutely. Or if it’s not realistic, then we have to revisit what are those documents? What has been documented in terms of what to expect for an employee? And and all this? You know, when is it due right for an employee to work from home, and they’re not used to work from home, right? There might be some other distractions, they have kids home, or a spouse at home, right, or your dog, whatever the case may be whatever they, you know, whatever they’re going to experience, they may get distracted. And so, but doesn’t matter, unless you have those specific the SMART goals outlined, that’s how you’re going to measure your employees performance. Right? And that’s how you this is kind of your tool, your metrics to provide an outline and some guidance, and no matter how they achieve them, they’ll be able to to meet that. And if they don’t, then we have to look at is it realistic? Right. Right. And if they are, good way, yeah, realistic, I think is the key word when it comes to performance management, because you will make employees feel like they’re failing, if your expectations are far from them.

11:27
Absolutely, you don’t ever want to have an employee feel like if they’re not meeting your goals? And if they’re not, and they are realistic, then you have to have those conversations and make sure what preventing them to meet those goals. Is it

11:39
communication is your issues, is it you know, technology issue is it time management issue, so there’s just a whole lot of things that

11:47
conversation has to happen, need to be had with the employee itself, just to make sure that these smart goals are met.

11:56
Anthony, really, I am a big fan of the smart criteria.

12:02
But I would also say, you know, I think the all employees should get some kind of a basic outline of what their job actually is. So, you know, I know might be cliche in some areas, but a job description would

12:17
really, you know, help in that department. And again, you know, those things should be fluid, you know, obviously, things change over time. But it really should just be a general, what does this person do? Or what are they responsible for? What are the expectations of the job? Now, from year to year, when you’re looking at, okay, we’re gonna do performance. And, you know, I know a lot of companies are getting away from the whole performance appraisal thing, they’re going more to like ongoing performance assessments. But I think for most of us, we’re still doing the annual performance reviews. So I think, you know, again, using the smart criteria, you put in targets, you put in responsibilities, what are the projects that this person is gonna be working on this year. And again, those things could be changeable throughout the year, but it’s on the employee, the manager to kind of keep that updated this way, at the end of the year, the manager has that opportunity to make that assessment. And again, we all know, things change. I mean, obviously, this year, with COVID-19, I’m sure, you know, a lot of companies are just going on their merry way, doing what they were, you know, tasked to do employees were doing what they were testing the whole world in March, and, you know, maybe the strategy change, look at companies like Ford, or GM, you know, they were making cars, and they were making ventilators.

13:32
So, you know, we just, that’s an extreme example, but it’s just an example of we have to keep up with the changing environment, even even every day, in order to properly assess the employee and what they’re doing. And then on top of that, I think there needs to be discussion needs to be you know,

13:50
I remember a time when managers would talk to their employee twice a year because they had to, that would be in the media review and the urine review. And sometimes they would even skip the media review. So just be that, that end of year, and it’d be basically a two minute conversation. Yeah, you did. Great. here’s a, here’s a rating, go back to work. Now, I think, I think that really needs to have more ongoing discussion, I would even argue a couple times a month, or maybe more as needed. I mean, if somebody’s struggling in their job,

14:25
you know, you may have to kind of have more of a dialogue, you know, before you put the person on some kind of coaching plan or performance plan or something like that. There needs to be that the employee should not come surprise, when you know, the manager says hey, we’re putting you on a pitch now. That should not come as a surprise at all to the employee. Unfortunately, it does a lot. And and unfortunately for the manager, those are the pips that don’t survive.

14:50
Because they’re not using managing the pips. You know,

14:55
there are they’re managing the pips just like they were managing the prior performance. They’re not

15:00
So, go and you know, you asked for an example, those are the examples of non success stories. But maybe not when you were thinking of,

15:10
because I haven’t been great.

15:14
managers and pass love, you’re not living up to random.

15:18
We have to move on. So I,

15:24
I just love how you kind of word it where it needs to be ongoing, you know, during orientation, when I speak to the employees, hey, just because 90 days are up doesn’t mean that we’re not managing your performance. And if you have any questions, by all means, feel free to ask because what happens is, and if it feels too comfortable when a manager takes a laid back approach, and I’m not saying for a manager to be on top of the employee, and constantly at their beck and call, asking questions, I mean, you want to provide some sense of accountability and some self resourcefulness for them to just go out and get their information on your own. But at the same time, if you’re not on, you know, kind of asking, Hey, how’s it going? Is there anything I can provide for you, you’re not that much information from the employee eye, and you want them to provide you with, with information where I need another screen, I can’t work right from one screen and trying to do all this data entry. And then have you expect me to turn it in at this time. So pass an open door policy dialogue conversations would be nice. And, and I’ve heard some horror stories where employees get terminated for whatever X, Y and Z, they’re not meeting the SMART goals, right. And so instead of having making adjustments on those smartphones, because I also heard, the last time a job description was updated was about over 1520 years ago, let’s go in on time change, look at it, look at the situation we’re in now. Right. So there’s going to be a lot of things that have to be looked at, and reevaluated. And I think on top of that having one on one conversations, maybe not as frequently. And so when the annual reviews, I look at annual reviews as a money review, are there any merits attached to this annual review? Yes, it might be or no, but at least you give some sort of feedback to the employee just to let them know where they’re on. On the ongoing basis.

17:27
I really, I really agree with what you guys have said as far as how often someone should be reviewed from my personal experience, not not the job I previously had. But way back when I had a different job, I would only get a review. every six months. I know when I first started it was the first one was after three months, and then it moved to every six months after that. And I remember thinking it was just so frustrating, because if I was doing something that they felt I could be doing better, I had to wait for six months to even know and then try to correct it. And and I also feel like it’s just, it’s it’s sometimes setting up your employee to fail because for several months, they’re going on doing something that they could have corrected way before then. And sometimes it’s too late by the time you let them know an interview. And, and that’s how I felt it was frustrating, I would always ask for feedback prior to it. But it just almost it made me feel uncomfortable. Because it made me feel like I shouldn’t be asking for any feedback. If it wasn’t the formal review, and then touching on the job description thing. I honestly I think a fun activity would see be able to, I would love to see if employees could just write out what they think their job description is because I

18:45
almost no one could match what it was when they actually interviewed and obtain the job. So that that’s an interesting point. And he made that to give the job description to the employer because I think it doesn’t sound cliche at all. I do think a lot of people really don’t remember or know anymore what it is they just get used to doing their responsibilities. And, and that’s it. So, yeah, I mean, I like the job description because it serves the employee as a metrics, like okay, they’re gonna, if I’m gonna get a review today, these are the items I’m going to be reviewed on. Right, but then they forget to see that the bottom line says and other things as needed, right if if an employer is diligent enough to put that as a bullet point in their list of responsibilities, but you’re right, Cory, and you know, things change all the time and job descriptions are not as consistent as they were before. I mean, everybody’s wearing many hats. And the reason for that is because of budget, the economy, technology change the demand change, though, employees probably feel overwhelmed and managers are not guided properly as well. So I also think that managers should have some training in this because they don’t have to prep

20:00
guidance on how they can guide a team if they don’t have the resources and tools to do that.

20:06
Right. And, you know, I kind of want to throw you a curveball here, cuz I know we didn’t really discuss this before. But

20:15
HR is really it, you know, a lot of the HR professionals job is to be guidance, and to kind of guide your managers and your teams into how they can work with their own teams. So in a sense, you know, you’re not doing the performance management, day to day techniques for every employee. In a sense, it should be teaching the leaders of your different areas of the company, how to manage performance for their teams. So, so really what, you know, what do you what are some best practices that you have as far as teaching a manager or teaching someone else how to manage performance? And I know sometimes that all it all falls on HR. But it is imperative, I think that your team leaders know how to do that as well.

21:08
Yeah,

21:10
I’ll start with this. I don’t, I’m not a big fan of PowerPoints and sitting through bulleted, you know, just templated trainings for employment for managers on I mean, while that’s a good resource, sometimes, where you give that to your manager to, you know, as a checklist to say, this is what you should be doing to manage performance, I really believe it’s inherent on the on the company, you know, depending on how large it is, maybe the team or the business within the company, on how they should be managing the performance, because it all depends also on what kind of jobs they’re managing.

21:48
You know, what level managers they are. All these things kind of come into play, as to how, but really, in the end, it’s, it’s probably the frontline manager that will be doing most of the performance management. Yes, some of the higher level managers will be managing their managers below them.

22:07
But by that point, you know, in their career, they pretty much know what they’re doing, or managing performance and what expectations to set and that kind of thing. But I think it’s really incumbent on the first line manager, because they’re dealing with the day to day.

22:23
And again, I think I’m more of the approach of a tailored type of training, maybe coaching. But also, you know, you give that overview of how you think performance should be managed, and how to manage poor performers, and that kind of thing. You know, there’s, there’s certainly general fundamentals of doing that. But if you get more in depth, I think a tailored type of training, trying to understand the organizational culture, the history, that kind of thing, I think that’s important in trying to give the best advice for performance management. And then of course, you know, dealing with a one on ones, so they have a certain situation, each situation may be different on how to handle. So that direct line with HR and the frontline manager is crucial. So

23:10
I couldn’t agree with you more Anthony. I mean, I think that training should be tailored to the specific of the employee and how they learn. Not every person learns the same way. And not everyone has the same need. I think that that should be considered highly, and I love PowerPoints and presentations. But I am a big fan of one on one coaching and mentoring and coming from the HR space. I’ve worked with a lot of general managers in the hospitality industries, and also frontline managers, when they’re trying to manage their employees and trying to coach them and develop them into their position or groom them to the to the succession of the position, right. Um, you know, providing these feedback and kind of guiding these managers and how to respectfully speak to an employee. I mean, as an HR professional, I always look at myself as odd as, right not not the person that okay, this is how you do it, I’ll take care of it, but more as their liaison, someone that someone who they can come to to resolve problems, be the mediator, when there’s a situation between a manager and employee, because what you want is you want to make that communication work, they’re going to be working much more together than the employee or managers with HR. I mean, they should look at HR as a resource and astronaut, you know, so door where they can come in and ask all the questions they can and take advantage of, Oh, my gosh, what I’m supposed to do with overtime, what am I supposed to do if they are not meeting their uniform requirements? What are their you know, what am I supposed to do if they spill coffee? This is like the 10th time they spill coffee, how I’m gonna make themselves spilling coffee, right? Or if an employee is having struggled to meet those uniform requirements, why don’t ask me have the conversation with the employee, right? I wouldn’t know. But if you do need some assistance, I’ll be more than happy to

25:00
To help you develop that rapport and and, and create these questions that doesn’t make an employee feel intimidated or uncomfortable, because it might be some situations where they’re not feeling comfortable. And that could also be because of the rapport that you’re not building with them. One of the best examples that I’ve learned, doing contract work and understanding what the workforce need is just asking them, what got you here? Where do you see yourself two, three years from now? Are you in school? And if they tell you, they’re in school, okay, great. What did you study, things like that? Do you see yourself long term in this position. And so this is how you start building report, the managers need to start doing that too. And I see more and more often that the p&l is is very important, and I get it.

25:45
And operations, p&l is extremely important. But also managing your team expectations. Because as the leader, they’re looking up to you, a lot of things, and managers is looking up to HR for so much more things. And so I am so proud to be that liaison to be that mediator between employee manager and make sure that relationship works.

26:15
With that.

26:16
And, you know, I also wanted to touch on this earlier, but I might be a good time to do this. But, you know, again, managing performance, whether it’s a larger type training, one on one coaching with a manager, you always want to ensure that they understand that it’s important to to manage the what what is the employee doing? You know, it’s easy to talk about widgets, obviously, there’s very diverse jobs out there very technical. I mean, can’t even begin it’s just infinite, the intricacies that go into, you know, each job, but, but I think the two most important things to look at are what is the employee doing? And are they meeting those expectations? And number two, how are they doing it? And I think the second one is, is the one we always lose.

27:05
Because this is when behavior comes into play. So I’ll give you a simple example. I’ll use a sales, again, somebody’s making their budgets is over budget, they’re, they’re really great. But they’re yelling at their customers, they’re not very nice to deal with their communications are way off. I mean, you know, just short answers, yes, they’re meeting their, their responsibilities, but the attitude is just not there. And they’re not really representing the company in a, in a great way. And so those are kind of the softer skills that make it really difficult on the manager to manage, because they’re not there with that person every day. And in fact, the person could be across the country. You know, the manager could be in New York, and the salesperson could be in LA, and but they’re getting feedback from their customers about how awful this person talks to other people. And so that person really needs to kind of compartmentalize those discussions, really get into what’s going on, get the feedback from the employee is this going on and why you know, this was reported, and start that documentation, and then coach that person on, look, you really needs to change your, your way, your tone, your, your way of talking to people. So again, that’s that’s the how of ensuring that the employee is doing what they’re supposed to do it and how they’re supposed to do it. Right. Um, I like that. You just said there, because

28:33
when it comes to managing employees, in a meeting, sales was like that p&l that I was talking about, it’s important for the company to create that revenue stream. But it’s also important to revisit the core values of the organization, and what the organization stands for, right? And so when you hear these things, and I’ve and I’ve had worked with organizations, where it’s completely a sales organization, and they’re very sales driven, and it’s all about, you know, what revenue is bringing in, but how can you continue, and then I hear the problem, we’re churning clients. Well, the reason why we’re serving clients is because who you’re putting up, you know, in the forefront and dealing with these people. And so it has been allowed so many, many times. And I’ve had some great sales organizations that they don’t, you know, condone that and they revisit with the employee and they start having some performance conversations and say, listen, while we do respect that you’re bringing in the revenue, we also understand we don’t want to continue putting in dollars in advertising for creating these clients because they’re so hard to come by, especially now in COVID. So it’s very important just to keep that self awareness for the employee teach emotional intelligence as well. There’s a certain stressor when it comes to meeting these deadlines and quotas. And so does the employee have that emotional intelligence to handle the stress and, and work with employees and not get all buckled up into the stressors of the company’s demand, and those

30:00
So what the client needs. And so I think that sufficient training and understanding in creating that self awareness, everyone in the organization, also revisiting the core values of the company is super important, super essential, just to avoid what you just said.

30:16
I think that’s, that’s very true. And I agree with that. And really, I wanted to bring in something we run out of time here that I know has been a common concern for a lot of people, if someone’s job right now does involve coming back into the office, even if it’s part time, and part time being virtual, and someone does just absolutely does not feel comfortable and doesn’t want to come back. You know, how do you measure their performance? Is their performance is reliant, their performance management is reliant on them being there?

30:49
For some companies? It is?

30:55
Wow.

30:57
Question.

31:00
You know, if somebody’s not comfortable returning, I mean, by this point, if it is an office job,

31:07
I think it’s pretty safe to say that they’re probably able to work from home for the long term. If it’s some kind of blue collar, you know, manufacturing type work, then yeah, I mean, they probably had a return at some point already, or some kind of modified work. Now, we did deal with this earlier, a few months ago, where people didn’t feel comfortable coming to work. And you know, the company can only extend some companies may not all, depending on your size, and your budget, maybe can extend some more leeway to the employee, to say, Hey, you know, take the time off, or, you know, they’re just gonna say, you, you’re gonna have to figure it out and take, you know, whatever, vacation time sick time, you know, depending on where you live your state, you know, that’s allotted to you. But at some point, you know, they’re, they’re probably gonna have to return with those precautions. Of course, that’s up to the employer to make sure that those precautions are in place. But again, from from my experience, you know, if it’s an office type environment, then if you’re not comfortable going back, then, you know, as far as I’m, as far as I know, we’re not making you go back at this point.

32:16
Right, I think that is, it should be taken a case by case but also be very careful how that’s handled, because you don’t want to send the message, the message as well, this person has special privileges, it has to, you know, if a work can be modified I, and with reasonable cause, then I don’t see why an employee cannot allow an employer does not allow an employee to not come back to work. I mean, I think the question will, in managing performance, it shouldn’t be anything change, unless it’s something that requires for the employees to be on site, then then we have to start revisiting a modification in their in their labor, right, what other things they can do in the meantime. And that’s going to also require a conversation about salary, maybe what they were doing before, they were earning more, and now they have to earn less, because what they were doing previously, just, it’s a whole different job, right. And so I’ve heard folks like, well, we’re gonna have to let them go, because they’re not meeting these expectations. And I’m like, No, no, we have to look into other opportunities. Now, if it’s reasonable for the organization, I’m not, I’m not saying go ahead and create a job just to make this person feel comfortable. But if a position does exist, and it allows them to transition into that position, then of course, you know, by all means, kind of revisit that and then set the tone for a culture where, hey, I’m not going to lose my job if I don’t feel comfortable, but also set the tone, hey, if your job requires you to be there, just give me reasonable,

33:42
reasonable

33:45
feedback to why and should readjust your position or the role. But the feedback and performance management should not change, I think it should be consistent across the board. I think that if you follow the mark goals and provide specific, you know, metrics for the employees to follow, whether they’re working from the office or working remotely, virtually, then nothing should change. But if it’s a difficult employee, that may, you know, require a little bit more touch points, right touch bases, like instead of calling this employee maybe once a week, maybe touch them, touch base with them first, at the beginning of the weekend, towards the end of the week, right? set some specific goals on an ongoing basis and set milestone goals, not not long term goals for short term goals and kind of see where that goes and see how the performance of the employee reacts to that change and how they perform under that. So but, yeah, I mean, it’s gonna be a lot of changes and a lot of pushback coming into the office, but it has to be reasonable for them not to feel good and it also could be they have families,

34:50
right school being an issue, right? The biggest

34:55
issue right now, listen, communication with your employees, you know, as the guidelines are

35:00
And let’s say you are opening up your offices, again, we’re having some kind of modified openings, you know, make sure that your employees know that and right up front to and let them ask questions, have briefings, you know, explain to them what’s going on what you’re required to do what you’re not required to do what’s optional, what’s not. So they’re aware, and it’s upfront for them. So you have time also to have those discussions late. If they’re not comfortable coming back, you know, you can work on those, like Brenda said, on a case by case basis.

35:28
I agree, I agree. And I think all of this was really helpful, because I know that this is something that a lot of people are struggling with, because they’re so used to doing performance management, in the with a system or process that they’ve set into place and never had to be outside the office, or even if they’re remote, I still feel like now that the kids are remote, if someone is used to working remote, their remote world is very different now. So I think there’s a lot of changes, and we have to change with it. So I appreciate you guys coming on. And I think you had wonderful tips and and feedback for everybody. Absolutely. Hopefully, you’ll come again soon. Hi, everyone. So we are back doing a touch base. It’s been about three months since I spoke with Brendan Anthony, on performance management. So we’re back and I just wanted to talk about if you feel like anything has changed at all, as far as how people should go about performance management in this virtual world, and also in the world of transitioning back to in person.

36:35
So no, no, no, Corey, nothing has changed. Nothing should have changed. I think the only thing, the big thing that has changed with performance management is that you’re taking something that normally happens inside of the office space, right to something more virtual. So there is a learning curve behind that for those who are not, you know, adapt to technology and trying to navigate zoom or whatever the case may be and how they’re conducting these virtual meetings. But you know, and truly is just being able to be that transparent leader, being able to focus on the on the task or the job, you know, before them. using that as a tricks to measure the everyone’s performance, whatever the task or responsibility is on the employee is just to be able to communicate, Hey, have you done this? Have you done that? But it’s not about micromanaging. I mean, I think people misconstrue performance management with micromanagement. It’s it’s giving a lot of

37:39
high quality,

37:41
leeway, or freedom for your employees to make their own decisions. And you’re just there to guide them and coach them through the process, and be available to them whenever they need you for any answers, that they to the questions that they have.

37:57
Right, agree 100%, Brenda, and actually, we’re in an interesting time right now, because we are a lot of companies are assessing the 2020 performance at this point that you have already done that

38:09
we’re kind of in that period right now, where people are getting their performance ratings from last year. So and also setting up targets and performance metrics for this year. So with that, you have people being put on performance plans, and they’re kind of not performing very well. So all this stuff is going on, as it does every year. And so like, you know, Brenda said, Nothing should have been do, it should not be looking over the shoulder kind of thing, you know, with people at work, because

38:40
in all honesty, a lot of people don’t get to work side by side with their managers. I mean, maybe if you’re in a manufacturing area, or something like that more blue collar, but

38:51
you know, those jobs that are especially in sales as I went into last time we met, you know, you’re not, you’re not seeing your manager at all. And so they have to look at what are you actually doing? What are what sales? Are you making, you know, what targets are you hitting? Are you hitting your targets or not? All those things, but maybe this year as we kind of integrate back in the office as they’re looking at the targets for 2021.

39:16
Maybe putting in certain targets to integrate back in the office if it’s relevant or not. Maybe won’t be depending on the on the job.

39:27
I think, you know,

39:29
go ahead right. Now it’s fine. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. recording. Okay.

39:34
Excuse me, I just lost my train of thought there. But Anthony, you you hit the point there to where, you know, looking more forward of how to kind of navigate back into the office. I mean, are we eventually going back to the office? Yes, there is an opportunity, hopefully, you know, trying to be optimistic for the third quarter where we can navigate going back but you know, looking at those metrics, looking at those performance is definitely the we’re ready entering the annual performance review.

40:00
But I do want to, you know, ask folks to be careful and how they’re providing those grades. Because I will have to say a lot of folks who are working from home, find it to be very challenging to multitask, because one arm workforce, they, they don’t have babysitters, and they have their children, are they for babies or whatever obligations that they have, that’s going to create distraction. So I will say, you know, provide them a little leniency, but always focusing on the metrics in front of them, you know, what, what, what was their targets, what they needed to meet, and then from that point is to create that target for the following performance annual, you know, performance year. But we have to really be careful how we, I hate to say, but judge the performance based on the situation that we’re in, in COVID. But really focused on the, you know, on the big picture on the overarching picture, can this person perform? How do they do last year? Was it any different? They did the previous prior to COVID? And I think that’s where we need to start looking and looking at their previous performance? Did they?

41:04
Excuse me? Do they

41:07
excel, the expectation, they exceed the expectation from the last time you had a conversation? And if anything that lines, what really was the big problem, and I think managers now needs to be very curious about asking those two real questions and be, you know, transparent, hey, look, I understand that certain things change and blah, blah, blah, and, you know, just having those real heart to heart conversation and be empathetic about it.

41:32
Can I just pick up on something Brenda said there with people, people are still feeling the pain, if you will, of the pandemic and working from home.

41:45
And it may be reflecting in their work? Actually, I I can see it more and more, you know, with kids, are they going back to school? Are they not going back to school? Are they kind of doing a hybrid thing, you know, one week they’re home to work, then the next week, they’re in school? You know, and the parents are trying to

42:02
do, obviously, they do their work as they always have been doing. But now maybe they’re, they’re going back to the workplace, too. So what do you do about childcare, and I’ve actually been seeing more and more people, employees stressed out because of this very issue. And so, you know, my advice, always managers is just as much and I know, we’re kind of getting a little off topic, but it’s all within the context of work.

42:26
Just try to be as accommodating as you can, whether that’s time off with that, you know, shifting hours from early morning to after hours or whatever, if you can,

42:39
you know, do all these things, if they have to kind of reduce their hours go part time for period, you know, maybe we could, we could accommodate that.

42:49
So it’s all about communication and talk to your manager about what can we work out here to really keep my sanity, as a as an employee and as a parent, and also, you know, get the job done as well.

43:03
And

43:06
that kind of leads into where I was going. And Brenda Connery took us there, too, is that I think, a lot of places are also trying to figure out how do we accurately judge someone’s performance management, because it’s not, it’s not fair to base their performance from last their base, what they’re expecting this year off of what happened last year, and it wasn’t fair last year to expect certain things from an employee that they had done in 2019. So I don’t know, what are your suggestions as far as how do employers, you know, balance that their expectations because you definitely can’t have the same expectations, when there’s all these other factors coming into play, like having children at home, and, you know, just being home, some people may not have a good or a nice or good spot for them to actually sit at home and work. I know that many people don’t have that. And they didn’t plan to have that. So it’s been hard to work from home for some people that situation.

44:04
But that’s really accurate query, and to Anthony’s point, flexibility goes a long way here. You have to be flexible, you have to be careful on how to measure someone’s performance based on life situation changes. I mean, this is this wasn’t overtaking, you know, and to your point there, not many people have an office space in their home.

44:28
Really, I mean, we’re in New York City, they will live in 400 square feet of apartments. I don’t but you know, the majority of people do and, and and it’s very difficult to be able to navigate and then also balance life when you’re balancing work. So the work life balance is very tricky now. But again, focusing on the job that needs to be done. We have to be very serious about developing and exercising those expectation communicating those expectations. So in terms of flexibility, I’m not saying

45:00
Go below what you did back in 2019, if you can keep the same pace, wonderful. But if something else happened, I urge all managers or leaders, as a leader, you have the responsibility and accountability to be very curious about what’s happening with your employee. Right? Ask them questions, hey, is there anything I can do to help? Or what’s causing the what? What are the causes and effects to to not meeting these goals and these targets? And so we can help you for the coming year? Do you think this is going to be a problem? You know, entering or entering 2022? when we when we look at some of

45:37
four for? What are we doing then? So it’s just being very curious, being very sympathetic and flexible?

45:44
I agree.

45:48
Do you feel that it’s fair to require a certain amount of hours from employees, because, you know, with working from home, you can’t really tell if they’re working X number of hours. And I know that a lot of employers, they pay based on the number of hours that employee the employees work, or they require a certain number of hours to even help go towards paid time off. But I do feel like a lot of being flexible, and a lot of, you know, helping manage their performance is being flexible and to be flexible, I kind of feel like we need to go in the direction of this is what needs to be done by this date, or needs to be accomplished and less, how many hours per day are you spending working? Does it?

46:38
Do you agree with that? Yeah, I think it depends. You know, you’ll also have your different categories of employees, you have your non exempt who can really only work, you know, the hours that are allotted, you know, eight hours a day, 40 hours a week, and then you have your, your non exempt who are pretty much the salaried, and they could work as much as they want. But yeah, there is an expectation of, you know, well, how much work do I actually have? Like, how many cases do I have? That’s what you’re working caseload are projects, you know, if you’re a project, kind of employee based employee. So it all depends, but it I think it comes a point on the employee to say, you know, okay, I have all this work, I’m looking at this week, I’m looking at next week, I’m looking at the week after,

47:26
I can’t really accommodate this right now. So that requires a communication with the manager.

47:33
And it’s not really a, it may not be a thing about reducing hours, per se, it may be reducing workload, or getting help getting assistance, you know, maybe maybe they can pull somebody from the team, something like that. So it really doesn’t hinge on ours anymore. Because, you know, technically, you know, most full time employees are 40 hours per week, but we all know people work 6070 hours per week, because that’s just the work they have. So it’s gonna take that communication with the with the manager and the employee.

48:06
Hey, I definitely agree to that. And, you know, when it comes to identifying hourly workers versus salary worker salaries, like you said, they work 6070 hours a week, as you know, they have a lot of autonomy to complete certain tasks within you know, 40 hours, they can do it within less than 40 hours and still be okay in March or march ahead doing other things. But an hourly employee that’s kind of very difficult to monitor when you’re not there doing whatever stuff remote, they can actually take the entire 25 hours when they’re doing other things. I mean, I don’t know. I really don’t know, I think that we’re not having enough people to complete certain jobs. That is for sure. That’s what I’m getting. Right now. People are actually working a lot more. So I’m not concerned people are under working. I’m really concerned that people are overworking especially in the new environment that we’re in.

49:02
Being that we’re working from home and come on us we get it when we work from home, we’re like, we do a lot more than we were in the office. Am I not right? I mean, we are, you know, not only doing laundry, but we’re also picking up that extra phone call. We’re also sending out that extra proposal because we’re like in our zone so we’re working more than what we normally do in our office because we’re not distracted by our co workers and you know, the the the pantry talks that we’re having nowadays, when we go grab a cup of coffee or smoke a cigarette, whatever the case may be, we’re not distracted by those things anymore, so we’re overworking

49:40
I don’t know if folks can actually separate those different job tasks to other people. I don’t even think that’s even a possibility with all these layoffs that’s happening right now. But you know, truly it’s being honest about your time what you can handle to what Anthony’s then Time management is critical in communicating. What can you accomplish

50:00
What You Can I think that it happens, it needs to happen both ways. But again, going back on the accountability and responsibility if the manager is to go ahead and ask these questions, is this realistic? So in the first part of the podcast, I mentioned the SMART goals, we got to have to revisit those SMART goals again, and make sure that they are hitting all the points. And if they’re not, how can we help you? How can we help you, but you know, I think people are working more than ever in this panda in this pandemic, they’re not under working, that’s for sure.

50:34
Also, look at your company’s resources, too, because there’s a lot of services out there that could help you as far as how to how to manage time, you know, whether it’s training, time management, training, or even, you know, counseling, you know, a lot of big companies have the employee assistance program, you know, that will not only like the counseling and that kind of thing, or stress, it’s, it’s, it’s how to manage workload, or how to, you know, manage time and work with other people and that kind of thing. I’m glad you said that, Oh, my gosh, people don’t even know about the employee assistance program that they do have,

51:09
where they don’t know what you write on. They don’t even know what’s for you, I can tell you how many clients I’ve worked with, who actually said, What is that? What is EAP, we’re in the middle of pandemic, you should know what this is for, right? People are grieving, the either

51:28
loss of income because their spouse lost their job, lost a family member, because of COVID. You know, folks really need to get on board with this program is actually free, it comes with the insurance plan, you just have to ask and help you folks navigate to it, you know, point out to it, I wasn’t shocked of how many clients I’ve worked with. And they had no idea that this was a resource for their employees, and it was free, it was part of their insurance plan. Unbelievable.

51:57
So one thing I just want to say does, I just want to change the topic for a second a little bit, I do feel like performance management, your evaluations that kind of give their employee the employees feedback on their performance also has a lot to do with who’s going to progress or move up in the company, promotions. And I do feel like there are some employees now that unfortunately, are at a disadvantage of receiving that chance to move up or a raise for performance. Because what they could have been a fantastic, very successful person in the office. Now they have three kids at home running around. And it does make it more difficult to have that same productivity as you did before, or focus as you did before. So what are your suggestions on a fair way to to make those decisions, or to even when it comes to hiring, I do find that some companies now or they are leaning towards people that don’t have kids at home, just because they’re trying to figure out how someone going to take on this new role and handle the kids? Because we’ve seen that that’s happened with a lot of employees that are already in that situation. It’s been difficult.

53:12
That’s discrimination. Yeah. Right.

53:16
I was gonna say Be very careful.

53:18
Be very careful

53:22
to discriminate name a mom or a dad from working, because they have kids at home and preventing them to climb up the corporate ladder because they you believe they can handle the task. First of all, to the employee, if you’re listening to this, find yourself another job. You’re not the right employer. But for the, for the employer and listening to this Shame on you, if you’re if this is your practice. But if you’re trying to adopt new ways to develop your culture, because you still have a culture you’re growing, whether it’s remote, or in the office, there is a message you’re sending by not promoting someone based on their family values. I mean, I think that you need to get with the times. Well, let me and

54:06
let let’s say that the judgment call isn’t being made just because they have children, but their performance is hindered. Not just because they have children, but maybe they don’t have a workspace at home that’s easy to work in or they don’t have very good Wi Fi. Let’s say that their performance is hindered by this new situation, how do you accurately compare them to their peers that might be going for us the same position? That makes more sense?

54:34
Yeah, I think it it all goes back again to the communication. So if you have things that are hindering you from doing your job, then you need to address it, whether it’s technology, you know, if you don’t have the correct

54:46
Wi Fi or or computer, you know, if you’re working off off of a laptop for a year and you can’t deal with that anymore. You know, there’s things called reasonable accommodations too. So you have something wrong with your eyesight. You can’t continue to look at this

55:00
laptop monitor, you know, the company should be getting you big monitors, for example, so they need to accommodate you to do your job effectively and successfully. And any any good company should do that would do that, because that just means, you know, more productivity on the other end.

55:16
And then I’m sorry, your your other part of this question was, how would it hinder performance or something like that, I think, have certain factors that have come into play that hindered what their performance was, I mean, is now versus what it was before?

55:34
Right. So you always have to go back to the basics with performance, you know, where are they? Are they hitting their targets? Are they doing what they’re supposed to be doing? Are they doing quality job, you know, are they doing a timely, all those smart criteria items that Brenda hit on last time,

55:49
anything kind of outside of that needs to be taken in consideration, and and again, needs to be communicated, you know, if it’s, if it’s, I have to watch my kids? Well, we have, we’ve you could take or whatever the case may be, or you can adjust your hours like we went into earlier, you know, it takes you employee should just not assume that managers are going to know,

56:10
you know, what’s going on in their lives that might be hindering their work, you know, it could be an illness, you know, somebody could be going through some kind of godforsaken illness, and that’s inhibiting their work. So again, it takes that employee to kind of make that known. And there’s, again, there’s programs that kind of deal with these are there should be there’s actually laws that deal with these things, too. Like I was referring to reasonable accommodations, leave sick time, all the all these other

56:39
a timely benefits, right, pay time off. Right, right. But I do forget, I do know, I think you were right. I mean, I don’t feel like a lot of employers, and I know from experience with some that they are not seeing it as discrimination, but seeing it as more like how do we keep our business running, but it’s not fair to pick and choose who’s going to do which roles based on who has the least distractions at home.

57:06
It really hope, I really hope

57:10
foreigners are not allowing our leadership to make decisions based on that, like, that’s just really my hope. But But again, I think that managers and the leadership team should lean towards on HR support. And this is when HR should come in and really lend in the hand when it comes to remote performance management. And here’s why they can send out a survey for those folks who are unable to, you know, freely share any medical concerns, because of embarrassment or whatever the case may be, you know, HR can step up to the plate and taking a survey and and go ahead and check on every employee to see if they need any additional accommodation, as long as it doesn’t hurt the organization’s budget, right. But you know, an undue hardship to the organization. So, you know, do a survey to all employees. And if that means just checking up on them, you know, directly and find out if they have all the technology resources that they need to continue their support. Because if you’re finding now out during performance evaluation, that your employee cannot do their job because they didn’t have a reliable computer or reliable. Wi Fi shaman, both, right, because it’s a it’s a partnership is a collaboration of employee and manager. And they should have had that conversation a long time ago. And this is why I really

58:33
frown upon, when some leaders come to me, Hey, I’m gonna let go this person because they’re not meeting their expectation, when did this play, find out that they weren’t meeting their expectations. So it’s important to still have that check in that one on one. Because if you’re finding out in the 11th hour that this person didn’t have, you know, adequate resources and materials and technology to complete their tasks, shame on you, right, but they need to really lean on HR for a lot of that support to they feel like they need that help to to, to really get that information out. Because I’ll tell you, employees are not that comfortable with spilling the beans to their managers for whatever x y&z reason. And for that reason, too, for failing of for for not being considered for promotion. So it is important to kind of get that outsider within the HR within the company to get more involved with them. And even the opposite. I mean, it’s all too often that I find employees have been terminated. And they have no idea why. And if the employee doesn’t know that it might be coming or they don’t have a clue why they were terminated, then I think that’s just proof that there was zero communication beforehand and really no performance management. Yeah, that’s a failure on the side of the company. Most of the time, you know, there are there are issues that arise that yet require the immediate termination to somebody. Those are pretty rare and egregious.

1:00:00
But if it’s a performance management issue, you know, they should really be building up to that point, with performance ratings with coaching with documentation with performance plans to get to that point of termination really is, you know, a lot of warning and notice should have been done. Right? It should. Absolutely.

1:00:20
And last thing for you. And I know, this could be a little difficult to answer. But, you know, we talked about performance management, when it comes to just, you know, continuing the great performance someone has had thus far, you know, promotions, you know, how do you explain the performance management, if, before they might be terminated, or showing them that that’s the route they’re on. But one thing I’d like to touch on is, when someone is terminated, I mean, I do feel like this falls under performance management, because I personally feel like it is fair to give someone some sort of explanation evaluation of why this is happening, so that they can progress and move up in future endeavors. But I also know that in a lot of

1:01:11
places that that is not required, and a lot of employers do not give a reason

1:01:17
about as to why it was, you know, saying it wasn’t a good fit, or just not working out is not an explanation. It’s not feedback. So how do you feel about when you have done everything you can in regards to performance management, kind of taking that to the next level, when you do have to let someone go and giving them that feedback for future?

1:01:38
Does that make sense? That’s a great, yeah, no, that’s definitely a great question. I mean, we’re in that little state. And you can an employer can let you go just as much as you’re willing to leave.

1:01:49
Um, I think that, you know, when you when someone gets terminated, you should know, the employee should know why, at some point at some point, right? Right, they have to have like, a little feeling like, oh, because I did this or do that, or assume their own thing. But to avoid any litigious reason to let go of someone, it’s why it’s so important to document, you know, performance and having these annual reviews or these one on ones because it kind of avoids that, that that, that that concern, oh, they fired me. Because

1:02:24
for discrimination reasons, and blah, blah, blah, right? Because an employee can come back and, and fall, you know, anything with the Department of Human Services, human resources, give me and just say, hey, my boss was very prejudiced. And that’s why I was terminated, and blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, documentation goes a long way and employee should not find out. The reason why

1:02:46
the day they’re a go as a surprise, if there should have been enough conversation documentation. So ahead of time. Right? Absolutely. Um, you know, one of the things I ensure my managers do, my clients is, as the performance plan is getting to the end, and really, there’s no, there’s nothing good that’s going to come out of this, the employees not doing well, they’re failing this performance plan.

1:03:15
I had them have a meeting with the employee. You know, it’s like, they have the series of meetings throughout the performance plan, like maybe every week or every two weeks, at the last meeting before the end data that that performance plan. I try to encourage them to tell them you know, exactly what’s not going well give them examples and tell them exactly where this is headed.

1:03:38
You have to be really upfront and honest and then but when that time comes for if the employee doesn’t get it by them and resign first.

1:03:46
You know, when the time comes for termination, there’s really not much to be said at that point.