Wed, 2/24 11:23PM • 1:05:04
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
employers, person, people, job, interview, hire, candidate, questions, role, hr professionals, recruiter, company, internal recruiter, position, interviewing, hear, jennifer, applicants, pandemic, important
00:04
Hello, everybody, welcome to resourceful humans. I’m your host, Corey haber. And today I have with me, my hen and Jennifer, both that together have 30 plus years of experience in the recruiting and talent acquisition, Department of HR. And they are both very excellent at what they do. They can, they’re going to give us the internal and external perspectives today and give us some tips on that job seeking and recruiting area. So thanks for both of you coming on. I’m so happy and excited to have you.
00:41
Thanks for asking. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for having us. So I want to jump right in and just kind of
00:48
hear about what you feel right now. Because of the pandemic, what are the biggest challenges that are happening to job seekers?
01:00
Go ahead, man.
01:03
Yeah, you know, yeah, because I’m in I’m in the market. Now, I can say that, you know, the challenges are, you know, there’s a lot of folks out there right now, you’re not the only one, I think that’s something that, that when you’re looking for a role, you want to keep it in mind a fake that the challenges are, so many companies are dealing with uncertainty, you know, we’re going into an election cycle, or I should say, at the tail end of one, right, because it’s coming in a couple of months. I think also, you know, the economy itself and how it’s impacted. And there’s a lot of concern around, you know, hiring talent acquisition, people, you know, especially because it’s, are there are there roles that are going to require someone to come in and you know, you know, be a professional, right? Those companies are really assessing whether they need to bring in those individuals, whether, you know, based on the needs that they have. And I think those are the big challenges right now.
02:04
There’s, there’s challenges, there’s mishaps of everything that’s going on, you keep getting it on a continuous basis, what do I do? How do I make myself stand out? What do I bring to the table that’s different. And as the outside recruiter, it is, for me is to make sure that they understand who they are first and foremost, and that their confidence is as strong as possible, and that they forecast their value on a resume. And it’s important that I make sure when I’m working with individuals, that they have all of those steps, and they understand what they’re going up against, and what’s gonna make them different from other people.
02:47
Yeah, and I think that, you know, the big things when, when you think about sort of going out there in the market, you know, it’s leveraging your network, I think, now more than ever,
02:59
you know, you have to leverage the folks that, you know, each position is extremely competitive, just given what’s going on. And, you know, so it’s reaching out to people within your network, sort of finding that secondary network through the people you’re connected with maintaining those connections to it’s not just reaching out to someone and then not following up. But, you know, also I think what’s helpful is, is how do you how can you help someone who’s helping you?
03:25
You know, it’s, you know, that comes to consistency, staying continuing to stay contacted, or connected, and then also just patience and staying positive? I think we’re all going through it. I know, that’s been a challenge for myself, right? Is, is just remembering, hey, I’m not the only one and a lot of people I talked to, I’ve been networking with who said the same thing. Hey, you know, man, you’re not the only one going through this.
03:50
And I have a whole full success story. old, old high school friend of mine has reached out to me for the last couple of weeks. And he has gone for the first time in his life five months without a job. He’s going stir crazy. He sent me his resume. And I said, Well, here’s the first problem we have. And
04:12
then I helped him with his interviewing technique, because he was so wound up and full of energy that he had to learn how to slow it down. And then lastly, in the end, you actually said this perfectly as the follow up, you didn’t realize and this is a cue for everybody who’s looking out there, you’re allowed to follow up with people. You know, you had an interview with Sally Sue. And Sally said, All you’ll hear from me with one or two weeks. Well, if you haven’t heard from her within that week time period, reach out, it’s okay. Let them know that you’re actually that type of person, that I’m not going to sit back and just you know, be complacent and just watch and wait and wait, that when you hire me, I’m going to be this kind of individual. I’m going to take it and I’m going to run with it and I’m going to follow up with you because that’s who I am. And if you have a company that doesn’t appreciate it, then you don’t really want to go and work for that company.
05:01
So there’s a lot of different things that people should be doing that I think they feel like they need permission to do. Yeah, and you don’t need permission, you need to be yourself, and follow up and characterize yourself that’s going to differentiate you from everybody else. Because as everybody knows, you’re all looking for work right now. What’s gonna set you apart? I have a question for you, Jennifer in my hand. So right now, because everything is so much more virtual than it’s ever been, I do feel like a lot of people aren’t doing enough reach out. And they’re almost hiding behind their computer, because it’s become so easy to submit your resume to hundreds of employers at one time, and then they forget who they submitted. Or they just feel like they shouldn’t reach out because it’s not polite. Some of them feel like it’s not, they should just wait, do you feel like the person that does that reach out, it can sometimes make or break the decision if they’re trying to decide between them and another few people for 100%. But you want it to
06:04
really make that difference? You know, if it’s gonna be between, if it’s gonna be between john or Joe, and John’s The one who steps out of the box and said, Remember me, we spoke a week ago, this is what I can offer you. And Joe’s the one who’s sitting back like, well, you said you were gonna follow up with me. So I’m just going to wait till you follow up with me, who you’re more apt to actually hire? Exactly. You’re right. And I think also, just from from the internal recruiter side, which is where I came from, you know, if somebody’s leveraging their network, if somebody’s reaching out to different people within the firm, and that person is coming to me as the recruiter, or they’re able to, you know, name drop that individual, I can go back and just, you know, you can do almost a soft reference with that individual. Hey, listen, I spoke with Jennifer on the phone, you know, and she mentioned that you, you know, you referred her What do you think about, you know, what do you think about? Or can she do the job, here’s what we’re thinking, you know, those internal referrals are so strong. And so if you’re able to get those, you know, that’s another way that you’re going to differentiate yourself, especially when you think about a time like this. And for every job, there’s probably, you know, 200 300 applicants, not all of them, you know, are going to be relevant to the role. But what’s important, you know, I think there’s a lot of them that are going to be very close to each other. And so the ones that have those connections are going to stand out, and they’re going to be, they’re going to be top of mind, especially when somebody’s you know, a senior business line manager, or, you know, someone who you respect internally comes to you and says, you know, hey, you should look at this person.
07:47
It’s a wonderful feeling, I have more and more people who are coming up to me and say, Hey, you know, I applied at ABC, Do you know anybody there? And I’ll look, I’m like, Oh, actually, three people there, what are you looking for, and if I really, really liked them, and I’ve worked with them before, and I’ve actually interviewed them and spent time with them, it is so much fun to get on that phone, or send a quick email or LinkedIn message to Sally Sue and say, hey, you’ve got john smith over here that you’re about to interview, I give a thumbs up and you’re completely nuts if you don’t consider him and push him as hard sport as you possibly can. And it’s kind of fun, because I get so many different remarks, I didn’t realize you did that for me. And I said, why not. And in what we do with McMahon and I both do with our connections that we have led us. So if you have other recruiters out there that you know, that you’re connected to, and you actually have a good reputation, use it. But just put on your subject line, I keep telling this for 1000s of years, since LinkedIn has been out there, on the subject line, make sure you say I need your help, that’s gonna grab their attention faster than anything else, and who doesn’t want to help somebody, especially during this time. And they say,
09:01
Sorry, I was gonna I was just gonna jump in and say, when you’re reaching out and getting those referrals, you want to be specific and say, Hey, listen, this is the role that I found. This is the person that that you know, I would like to meet with or that is, you know, the recruiter on this role, or here, you know, this is the hiring manager, I think when you can be specific, it really helps the refer other the person making the reference, it gives them direction, it gives them guidance, you know, and they know what to do, you know, as opposed to a generalized sort of, you know, inquiry, Hey, can you introduce me to someone or I’m thinking about this role. It’s a lot tougher for someone to come in and have to, you know, to get that inquiry and then have to look around and say, well, who’s the recruiter and then you reach out to them and I don’t know enough about the position and right. It’s a lot of extra work that you’re putting, you’re asking somebody to do for you and it just puts them in a tough position at the end. Right. Oh, quick question for you. So
10:00
Since we have internal and external experience here, for someone that was looking for a job, are there different tips for standing out? If you’re dependent on if you’re working with someone on the internal or external end? Would the tips that you give to stand out be different? Or do you feel like they’re very similar?
10:21
I don’t think I could answer that from a hand because I’ve never been an internal recruiter. And I don’t think my hand could actually answer that, because he’s never been an external one. So I would hope there’d be different, I really, really would hope, my, when I have somebody from around the outside, my client is 100% responsive to me.
10:44
Where I would hope and to have please, please, but in his responsibilities for the whole company, even though he’s got different records.
10:52
So it’s very different. And there’s no right or wrong, it’s just very different and how you correspond, how you relate and how you treat them are all the same, though.
11:03
Yeah. And I think that that stays, you know, that the way you treat them stays, I think it holds true for for internally, I think internally, you know, you talk about standing out,
11:14
you have to remember, I think that you know the candidate as a candidate, you know, your background really well. And you need to guide the person on the other end, I think an internal recruiter, more often than not, they don’t sit in the business, they’re not an expert. And so it helps for you to connect the dots for them so that they understand what skills you’re bringing why you’re relevant to the role.
11:40
You know, at the same time, you know, you want to make sure that you as a candidate, understand what are the important aspects of the roles, you have to carefully read the job description, you have to ask the right questions, when you’re speaking with the recruiter, when you’re talking to the hiring manager, the candidate that can distinguish themselves is the one who’s going to be able to win, I always use this analogy, you think of it as the candidates on one side of a gap of a kind of a chasm, and the job or the hiring manager. On the other hand, the closer you can bring them, the closer you can bridge the gap, the less of a risk you become, in terms of you know, hiring that person. So you think, Oh, you know what this person is a really good, you know, they’re the perfect candidate, because the gap, their learning gap is significantly smaller than this other person who, you know, maybe I don’t know enough about them, or maybe they didn’t explain themselves thoroughly. And so that perceived gap is significantly larger. And where I come in on the opposite side, is, yes, I’m a professional recruiter, My responsibility is to make sure that my candidate that I’m representing gives all of their best on that interview. So plug for me, I’m a great prep person, I know how to prep people on an interview. And I use their stories, their analogies, their vocabulary when I help them. Because I don’t want them to hire me, I want them to hire that person. But it’s super important that you know, the questions to ask on an interview, how to ask on the interview questions to stay away from how to answer certain questions the right way, based on who you are, there is a list of continuations that you don’t know. And the only way I can sum up was how to have an interview, is have a conversation. Literally just kind of be yourself. And I always kind of give out rules when you’re on an interview video or on the phone or in person. Know Jacqueline Hyde, be yourself. Because if Jacqueline gets hired, and then without having too high, we don’t know you’re gonna get fired the next day.
13:43
You know, before you get on camera, before you go on an interview, you look in the mirror and say, You look good, you look presentable. And you’re comfortable, because that’s kind of really good. But mostly, and that sounds really funny, I guess, so much feedback on this. But how fun, literally try and have fun on an interview because it gets a chance for them to see your personality, and who you really are. And if they don’t like your personality, then you don’t really want to go to work for that company.
14:10
You’re absolutely right. So right. And, you know, I’m curious, Jennifer, sorry, if I can jump in and ask a quick question, because I think both of us on different sides of the coin have seen
14:21
those common mistakes, you know, what have you seen from candidates? Okay, and I can certainly share what what are the mistakes I’ve seen jobseekers make when when they’re coming in? My biggest mistake I think that I see people do number one is they interview for themselves and not for the company. When you interview your tone, your body language and your mannerism has to be what’s in it for the employer, not yourself. And the people go, Well, I’m the one I’m supposed to interview them as well. Yes, you are. But your attitude has to be in it for the employer. They’re the ones investing in you. The answers will tell you if you really want to go to work for that company. So don’t worry about that. But your money
15:00
aneurism has to be really who you are with a really fun attitude of like, if you hire me, this is your ROI. This is what I’m going to bring to the table. This is the value that I will bring for you. And here’s my, my, my number one favorite question that I have everybody asked, and I’m going to give it away to everybody. So watch out, Cory.
15:20
I’m ready. Nobody ever asked me ahead. And I actually talked about this prior to it, and he loved it. But nobody ever asked on an interview, and it’s your turn to ask the question, How can I help? How can I contribute? You ask that question, you have just set the tone for your entire interview as a, oh, this person actually cares for my company, they actually care on what they’re going to do. And you will see, just all of a sudden, the shoulders are going to relax, the person who’s speaking with you, is going to all of a sudden feel very comfortable
15:56
understanding you and where you’re coming from.
15:59
I think that’s a great tip. I honestly myself, I I’ve never thought to really ask that. But you’re right, it does show that you care about the company and the employer, and who you’re working with it.
16:15
I loved it, you know, and it’s one of those ones.
16:18
It’s so funny. You work in this business. For so long you do this job. And then you hear some new, new and insightful ones. I remember, you know, Jennifer and I talked about it earlier this week. And I was like, wow, that’s fantastic. I got it, I gotta steal it from you. Well, then let’s get plugs where it belongs. So my kids are all grown and everything else. But they were brought up in this industry, a mom working from home and hearing about it the whole nine yards. And probably about 10 or 15 years ago. My daughter is the one who came up with that. I was like, well, How come nobody ever asked how can I help? You always told me I should ask how can I help? And she was like seven, eight years old. And she just came up with her.
16:55
And I was just like, my girl and I’ve been using?
17:02
If you think about it as a seven year old wants to hear that, can you imagine what an adult is gonna want to hear? You’re
17:10
so right to write. Good job. Yeah. Next business partner. There you go. No, no, she wants nothing to do with what I do.
17:21
She’s a dog groomer and loves her dog. So she’s a phenomenal dog groomer. Helping. She’s asking them how she can help. Exactly, exactly. So but I also kind of think, and we’re talking a little bit about how you can interview. But I want to turn the table just a little bit. Because Cory, you had mentioned that your audience is going to be a little bit on the HR side as well. Yes. And I would love to make sure that the HR people who are doing the interviewing, actually know how to interview during what we’re going through.
17:54
Because a lot of what people want to hear, it’s very different now. And you can ask the same questions. And you can’t ask with the same attitude. And if you’re an HR professional, and you’re seriously not asking about their home life, their personal life, how they communicate, how they want to communicate? And are they set up to have an office? And what do you need? And my biggest thing with my training with my clients right now, is I make room for the kids.
18:27
I mean, that’s huge right now, and it’s going to take a couple of months for everybody out there. So if you think how come not getting hired. Just remember, HR professionals and managers right now are trying to figure out, how do I actually hire somebody, and they have first graders up to you know, 12th graders, and they’re at home, trying to go to school and being interrupted, because they could hear somebody else in the other room with them. And if HR professionals are not asking those questions, right now, you’re not going to get the person that you want to hire because it shows that you don’t care. And you have to show that you genuinely care in a very authentic way. Right? You do. And that’s what people want right now. They want to feel like someone cares, because they need people to care right now everyone’s going through a rough time. And I don’t think it honestly, I think everyone’s going through a rough time in a different way. So it’s not like some people will have it tougher than others. They just have it in a different sense. I have to understand that. Yeah, definitely. So I’d love to hear what what are your tips or questions that you suggest that HR professionals ask in these interviews during the during our pandemic? That’s happening?
19:42
And we’re kind of already mentioned at once. The first one is how do you communicate? That has to be probably the first question. Because Are you an IM person? Are you a text person? Are you going to pick up the phone? Are you through teams? You know, what is your comfort level? And some of these questions whoever’s listening, that can be reversed.
20:00
They really can probably all should be reversed at the same time. And we got down, you know, how can I help? You have to be and I learned this by watching a couple of webinars lately, kind of really have to be transparent when you’re interviewing. And when you’re structured, when you talk to the person, are your main competencies actually outline your three to five main competencies? Does the applicant actually know what they are, what they stand for, and why they are for that position and everything else? The second one, HR professionals, this is huge for you. Do you have a diverse panel of interviewing?
20:45
And are you working on that? If you don’t, and if you don’t, but you can openly say that you are working on it, then you’re covered.
20:55
But if you don’t, you need to address it. And now you need to figure out why.
21:00
And at the very tail end, how are you handling two briefs? mahana. and I both can openly say we get you know, it’s what is the word we get
21:11
ghosted. You love that word for everything. Now, let’s go 2020 words, we get constantly ghosted from people, we don’t know how we interviewed, we don’t know what’s going on. HR is not giving us feedback. If you’re an HR professional, take 45 seconds out of your day and give them that feedback. Good, bad or indifferent. If you don’t know how to debrief, somebody, hit me up, I will teach you how to debrief somebody on an interview. And so will my head because both of us done it. You know, you really Jennifer, you touched on something so important that,
21:44
that I’ve always believed in and certainly when, when I you know, mentored junior staff, or even when I had my team, it’s that white glove service, right? You want to you want to explain, you know, when you talk about structuring your interview? Well, one thing I’d like to do, you know, I’ve always enjoyed doing there certainly put into practices, the first thing, you know, I talked to a candidate, I explain what’s the structure, here’s how this interview is going to go, here’s the process. You know, here’s how many people are in the you know, going to interview you, here’s how many rounds, here’s when you should expect to hear from us.
22:19
And then you stick to it, right? It’s, it’s about having that white glove service. It’s about also understanding that, that as a recruiter, as an HR professional, you’re the first point of contact, you’re the primary point of contact, and you’re representing your company. So how you engage a candidate, how you treat them, that’s going to be there. That’s the impression that they you know, that they have, and even if they don’t, if even if they don’t get the job, how you how you turn them down, is just as important as, as you know, if you advance them. And so if you spend an hour with a candidate, and then shoot them a standard email, hey, you know, sorry, please apply. Yeah, you know, it just leaves a bad taste. But if you call them up, and you explain, hey, this is this, you know, I’m sorry, you didn’t get the role. But here are the one or two points that that, you know, here’s why, you know, you didn’t make it but somebody else did. You know, they walk away understanding it, and it gives them a sense of, Oh, you know, what, they do care.
23:24
And, you know, you can go back to that person down the road, or maybe they’ll apply for another job.
23:30
It’s really important. And one thing that recruiters sometimes forget to do is asking the hiring manager, well, why didn’t this person, you know, why aren’t you going to advance this person and really pushing them? I think we all have a tendency to not want to, because it’s just Well, you know, they weren’t a good cultural fit. Well, no, no, walk me through and explain it. You know, I’d like to give some feedback, is there something you can tell the candidate,
23:55
I think those things are really important. I just want to tell a really quick personal story to touch on your bad taste comment, because it’s so true. I interviewed back in the day with a company and the interview went great, but they ended up not offering me the position. So I interviewed with a different company in the same industry, I got the position. And within that first year, I was topping the company. And so then all of a sudden, I get a reach out from their new person in recruiting that specific company, asking if I’d be willing to, you know, do another interview. And, and to be honest, what I got from them, it the rejection was a standard email. It wasn’t personalized. It didn’t give me any feedback. And I told I was very honest with the new person in recruiting there, I said, I truthfully, it’s not that I’d be against it. I’m more against it because of the way they treated me. And the way that I saw that, that they handle their follow ups but after an interview, I mean, whether I got it or not.
25:00
Not, it would have been nice to feel like a person and not just a number. And, and so I didn’t, I didn’t do it for that one reason you’re absent, I guess the advantage that I have as an individual recruiter is my applicants always know why they didn’t get it. Because it’s said in my contract with my client, that they have to give me feedback.
25:24
And so that’s the advantage of going through an outside recruiter, is I actually know why every person did not get that job. But you also know, Jennifer, you also work with executives, right? So those those levels? Yeah. Oh, you do? Okay. Sorry, I was gonna say,
25:45
there are very specific and tangible reasons that you can, that you can identify for, for someone not getting the role, right. And as you sort of get further down, you sort of get to the more junior roles, it’s a little bit tougher, right? Because there’s a little bit more of it. Well, you know, I, and this is what hiring managers have sort of said to me in the past, well, you know, I, you know, I just had a better feeling about this person, or, you know, they’re, you know, the ever amorphous cultural fit there a better cultural fit, right? You know, as a recruiter, it’s, as an internal recruiter, it’s important to really press and say, Okay, well, what is it about that, you know, what is it that you liked about this one, versus, you know, the person that you’re negating, and it’s really important when you now that we’re bringing in things like bias and, and inclusivity, right, you want to make sure that it’s not, you’re not sort of looking at the cultural aspect, just because that person went to the same schools as everybody on your team, or they played, you know, you know, they played specific sports, right. And I say this coming from have that conversation. Well, coming from a trading background, where when I was working at an investment bank, on the desk, a lot of times, it’s all well, I really like, you know, people that played, you know, team sports, because that shows that they, you know, they really understand how this business operates. And it’s well, well, yeah, that could be the case. But there are other activities that promote that type of teamwork. You know, what about somebody that’s in a band? What about somebody that’s, you know, was in, you know, in the orchestra or, you know, did it was part of a big project, you know, there are other aspects where someone operates as a team. And so you don’t want to go down that narrow path. And you’re starting to see that more as companies look at what I would say, are non traditional candidates for for these front frontline roles. Yeah, there’s a lot of different. There’s a lot of different avenues, HR professionals and hiring managers, they have a lot on their plate right now. They did before. But now it’s even worse. Maybe we have not only do you have to worry about diversity and inclusion, you shouldn’t have to worry about it, you should have that number one hint, hint. But I’m an advocate for military, transitioning military, military spouses, that’s my pay it forward. And that’s what I deal with. And for the last couple of years, they actually kind of got good treatment.
28:05
And now I’m trying to tell them, I’m like, you’re not going to get that special treatment anymore. Because now employers just need to hire regardless. And we have to remind them that you can’t hire just regardless, you have to hire the right person for the right reasons. So as HR professionals, you really need to go back and kind of look at what you’ve done before. Because there is no such thing as the normal, it’s an abnormal. And if you go back to the normal, you’re screwed. Plain and simple. That’s what I’m going to put out there for you. So, and I think also, just as HR professionals, you know, you talked a little bit earlier about structuring your interviews. And I think it’s really important that if you’re the recruiter, if you’re the person that’s driving the search process that’s driving the interview process, you know, you talk to your panel and you you find out, you know, and you really think about who’s going to ask what you know, who’s going to test on what competencies, who’s going to ask, you know, focus on what areas what questions and,
29:03
and what everybody is doing so that everyone has a purpose, as opposed to having a candidate retell their life story five or six times in a row, or ask have them ask the same question. For five people in a row really quick. I have that one time, it was an all day interview, and I knew it was going to be an all day with lunch in between and everything else. And everybody asked me the exact same question.
29:27
And it was how do you like to be a program manager? And I’m like, I’m a recruiter, I am not a program manager. And by the fourth time I finally had to stop the person and say, Why are you asking me a question that I don’t even do? Well, it’s on the list of things that I’m supposed to ask you. Like that. You don’t know your audience because I’m not a program manager. I’m a recruiter. Let me tell you the question you should be asking me and let us kind of go for that and see what happens. So spot on the hand you have to know your audience, you have to have a question and if it’s not going to be
30:00
In a panel, and that’s going to be individually, make sure everybody’s asking different questions. Please don’t do that to your candidate. Yeah, and I don’t know if you’ve seen this. Jennifer, I’m certainly curious. I think we sort of alluded to this in our earlier conversation, but now, because of the importance of understanding what the strengths and weaknesses of candidates are, and, you know, also to maybe help compensate for the fact that you’re not sitting in the room across the table, we’re starting to see firms do us a lot more of those personality tests, those assessment tests, like Hogan or wonderlic, or Burke, and I don’t know if your candidates are experiencing that. I know, certainly, in my last role, that was one of the things that that we did put into place was an assessment test, especially for the mid to senior level, you know, hires that were coming in, so that we right there, part of it is an understanding of how you know, the fit to the role, but also, you know, from a talent development, talent management, talent development perspective of what areas, we can, you know, you can help an employee develop to to make them more rounded. You know, you talk about career progression and career development, that’s the thing that candidates are looking for now. Probably more so than comp I would say is, you know, what can I do here? Where can I go?
31:16
Oh, you know, wondering if you see that from your side of the table, always, to be honest with you, and assessments, there’s a whole there’s a buck on assessments in your pro con, and you can be in between, I see assessments work for the majority of how to train that person. Because this is the type of person that they are sales capabilities on assessments are good for that reason.
31:44
And any other type of personality, if they need to know how smart they are, then there’s wonderlic. If they need to know how good they are, then there’s the disc. So there are assessments out there, how you use them, use them the right way, employers don’t use them to waste your time. It’s expensive. And some people just don’t test well. But they’re amazing individuals. Yes, I take that to heart. I think it’s part of a process. I think it’s it’s, it’s something that you have to include as part of it, but not overweighted. Yeah, exactly. You know, I really want to touch on in person interviews right now, from both sides, because I had a lot of people that are really anxious to hear your opinions on that job seekers especially are some of them have been asked to come in for in person interviews, and they’re not comfortable. But then they’re also worried that they’re going to lose that possible opportunity by not going in, especially if it’s a job that can be handled remotely. And then on the HR end, you know, how do you hire someone, where eventually you might need them coming into an office or into a facility without meeting them in person. So I love how that happened. Starting in end of March to May. I’ve actually had my clients say, this is how we would like to do it. What do you think? And it’s more of the individual. If we know for sure that they’re going to come back into the office when they’re ready. Then ask them, are you comfortable coming into the office? There’s math, we’re all going to be six to 10 feet apart in the room? Is that going to be awkward for you? Are you okay? And as long as I say that you’re not okay with that right now, and you want to do it over video, not a problem. But as long as I know that you’re okay, we’ll come in and once the ban is lifted, so you have to really ask that person. And you cannot judge a person by saying yes or no. There are people out there who will think this is again, the permission side of it. If I don’t go into the office, I’m not going to get the job. But I’m scared for my life. If I do.
33:57
You have to be honest with the person that’s interviewing you. If you want to come into the office, you wear a mask, you make sure it’s you know, everything is good. Then you go and if you’re not comfortable, you tell them I am not comfortable. Right now I’m at a high risk. I have kids, I have older parents, I have a husband or a wife. But once I get the job and once we’re allowed to come back into the office, I’m all in.
34:21
So it’s not cut and dry. But it is cut and dry. You have to make a decision for yourself. And I think from a corporate perspective, you know, I think you have to understand that you’re creating a risk you’re creating a legal potential legal issue if you’re making someone come in I know that there are hiring managers that feel would feel more comfortable especially as they look at more senior level hires within their team, you know, at you know, if the role is is is
34:55
it’s higher in seniority, it’s more impactful. They do want to sit across the table
35:00
that individual.
35:02
You know, Mike, my comment, certainly early in the process was is, you know, maybe you save it for the last candidate, when you’re or if you’re down to the final two, I think I need to ask them if they’re willing to do it. Maybe it’s not in the office, maybe it’s at a Starbucks if you really need to get in front of that person, or another sort of venue, if you’re, if you’re not comfortable doing it as a video interview.
35:28
And it’s also just important to understand, you know, you know, maybe if you have to do it over over Brazil, well, make sure you, you know, you sort of have those questions, those issues, those things that those concerns that you have, and you you know, you be honest with that individual, you know, because because that’s going to, I mean, at the end of the day, we all have to be flexible. And this is an unusual situation. And, you know, maybe you extend the hire out, and that’s something I’ve heard before is, yeah, hiring managers have said, you know, what, I really need to, I need to see this person, I need to see how they interact with my team, I need to see how they are, you know, across the table, maybe we make this hire in 2021. When we can get back into the office, maybe it’s not as important. Yeah. Well, I really hope that people take the time to even reach out or comment on this post, to directly ask you more questions, because there’s got to be more in. And I think that this is very helpful to all the job seekers out there and HR professionals that are interviewing, but I really do hope they take the time to reach out to both of you to really get more information, because there’s so much more. We don’t we can only fit so much into 30 minutes.
36:42
No, absolutely.
36:44
Oh, well, thank you. Yes, my name is out there on LinkedIn. If anybody has any questions, all of my information is on my LinkedIn profile. And so thank you, Cory, this has been fun. I have been doing this for years. And if you’re an HR professional, have questions hit me up. And if you’re looking, hit me up, cuz I work both sides.
37:06
And I have all my information on on LinkedIn as well. It’s obviously just just my name and feel feel free to reach out more than happy to help or just lend a lender perspective. And he’s looking for a new position, everybody who’s out there, too. And this guy is good. He’s a senior talent acquisition manager. So I plugged him, hire him. Thank you so much that you’re too kind, Jennifer.
37:31
Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thanks, Carrie. Hi, everyone, we’re back doing a touch base. It’s been about four months since I spoke with Jennifer Monahan. And now that things are changing because of the pandemic, I wanted to touch base with them to kind of see what they’re seeing is changing with the interviewers. And interviewees, as far as we are, some places are virtual, some areas of the country are starting to transition back to in person.
37:57
And I’m going to pass it over to you to let’s hear, you know, what are you starting to see now that there are places doing in person, there are places that aren’t
38:06
done for you.
38:09
For the last couple of months, I have seen both, I have run into applicants who do not want to go in regardless, and they’re willing to give up an opportunity to interview because the company is not looking to go remote at all because of the situation and what they work in. And I’ve had companies that are open to both. And when I have clients who are confused on it, I tell them always start with a zoom. Why waste anybody’s time coming in? If you don’t like them or taking that, you know, risk? So I have seen both? And I think applicants as well as employers are open to both. And I think you have to be at this point in time.
38:50
safely. Yes.
38:55
You know, in the start, I guess the start of the fall, there was a bit more for me questions employers would ask, you know, questions it was I comfortable coming in, for for an in person meeting, as the fall went on. And as really I think in the northeast, I would say the numbers went up of positive cases really that that option sort of went away.
39:22
It was all zoom interviews, all phone interviews.
39:26
You know, and I think right up to now, I think that there is certainly the sense I got is now that that we’re sort of in January, February, you know, we’ve turned a bit of a corner and I I would anticipate that that people would go back into it for in person meetings. But my sense is is that that probably they would have to be vaccinated. To be honest, I think that that’s probably going to be a big driver of it’s certainly up in this area where the case is really high.
39:57
You know, certainly a lot of my colleagues who are working
40:00
him have said that their employers are not planning on having them go back to the office until until more people have been vaccinated.
40:11
I think it’s different because you’re in New York. Yep. I’m in Seattle. And Cory, you’re in Texas. Where are you at? Well, I’m usually in New York. But right this moment, I’m in Tennessee, Tennessee. That’s right. And you’re moving around somewhere with it to
40:25
keep up with you know, it’s also a three, I mean, the New York tri state region encompasses three states. So I think that’s also part of the concern, because you could have people who live in, you know, New Jersey, some even coming as far as, you know, northeast Pennsylvania,
40:42
that that are coming into the city for work, and then obviously, Connecticut, so a larger sort of dispersion, you know, geographically and so I think that that probably adds to it.
40:54
It does.
40:56
I was just gonna say that. Also, I feel like there are some interviewees out there. I know you mentioned, Jennifer, that some people have turned down opportunities for interview. But do you feel like that? I mean, I feel like that would hurt their chances of getting a job if someone else is willing to come in in person. And they’re not? Do you think that it hurts them? I mean, 100%, but they know that, yeah. And then when I, when I advertise, or when I put things on LinkedIn, everything that I’ve had to do is say remote, non remote work. And my title says non remote.
41:33
And so they’ll still get back to me, it’s like, well, isn’t there any flexibility? And I’m like, what, what part of LinkedIn? Did you not understand the message that says 100%? Non remote role? Right? You don’t really want to hire them anyways, if they can’t read the message. So but I think it also does from from a candidate perspective, if you’re uncomfortable and employers pressing you to do something that you’re uncomfortable with, they’re also that might just signal to you, hey, maybe this isn’t the right, exactly. I’ve had a I had a friend of mine who I worked with who was in a very similar situation. And she said, you know, that she was feeling the pressure
42:11
to go in and meet in person. And, you know, she had extenuating circumstances dealing with, you know, things, things on the home front, where she was worried about a high risk situation. And she said that, that’s to her, that became a cultural issue where they’re pressing Now, what happens when this, this pandemic has passed, right. And I think everybody needs to have a choice. And when I talk to certain people, they said, I’m not comfortable going in, and then like, thank you for letting me know that don’t go in.
42:41
You know, and the employer understands that the employer was very understanding and say, I don’t have a choice, I need them to come in because of what the company did, and the position that they were looking for. They had to be on site, and it made sense for them to be on site, you know, and the whole thing was compliant. COVID, 100%. I mean, probably even more so because of the situation, my new client that I’m working with right now, it’s flexible, for training purposes, they have to come in. But once that’s over, it’s going to be driving, you know, flexible coming in and out. And this employer understands that. So my biggest driving force that I asked them, like, have you gotten any better about onboarding? Because the last person they hired from you started in April? Yeah, well, and that’s a good point, I think that a lot of places are, you know, they might be okay with doing interviews virtually, but they’re struggling with how to train virtually. So I think that’s where a lot of people that are interviewing also need to keep, they need to keep that mindset open of I might have to go in to learn how to do this job. And then I can be remote, but not willing to go in at all, I think can really hurt your chances. But what are your suggestions as far as for the interviewer
43:56
in? How can they get that message across that they might need you in there for training? But this might could be a remote job going forward after that? Or is that something they should even announce? You know, it’s 100%? off? If you don’t? I mean, we’ve got a perfect example that has been out there interviewing. Yeah, so he is seeing both things. But if you’re an employer looking to hire right now, and you don’t put it out there, right up front, and you’re hiding it,
44:25
then who’s gonna want to work for you knowing that, okay, if you’re hiding this, what else are you hiding from me? It shows the colors of the employer shows the truth. There’s a word I’m trying to get. The employer is showing True Colors of who they really are. If that’s how they think they should get the right person in there. And they’re going to hire that person. And then the person is going to figure it out in a couple of months. And guess it’s going to be looking all over again.
44:50
You’re right, you’re right. And I think from a candidate perspective, you can you can explain your situation, you know, because I think that if you’re open and you’re honest
45:00
And it can be as simple as something, you know, I’ve got, you know, my, my parents my in laws living with me or taking care of them and they’re at high risk, and so I can’t afford to take a chance and come in right now. Because if I get sick I get exposed, they might potentially get exposed. And that could be you know, and it can be fatal. Right. And so that’s, you know, those are the things that that you have to be open. And you have to be honest, and I think employers are willing and understanding because I am certain that every one of these employers has somebody who is in a similar position, or at least knows of someone who does have to, and it doesn’t have to be parents, it could be a child, it could be, you know, it could be a spouse, you know, it could be even yourself, right, you know, somebody who’s diabetic, or somebody who has some kind of a respiratory problem, you know, you know, those are the things that those medical complications can can certainly
45:58
do create that problem. And if anything, this pandemic, I think, from both sides, has taught us that we’re in business can still move forward with flexibility.
46:10
And I think as we continue to move forward, as people continue to get vaccinated, which is great, it’s going to open up even more. And then we’re going to start seeing people wanting to come back to work, as well as people wanting to stay remote, and then working with the employers and saying, What is your give and take? And do you know, you’re given take?
46:30
You know, I just posted actually today? So it’s kind of good timing, Cory on this question, is I actually did all of the questions of who, what, where, when? And how to employers? Do you know how to do this? Do you have the answers before you actually hire? Because if you don’t, then you have no business hiring anybody? Right? until you have these answers. And it’s really hard to get it across to everybody saying, saying that? And are you going to do a remote and on remote? And when the doors open? What are you going to do? What are your procedures? What do you have in place?
47:00
And I think is person someone who’s going to an interview if an employer can answer those questions, that’s also concerning, and would make me not want to take a job with them. Because there’s so many places that have figured everything out. And before you take on a job, I feel like you want to know what’s in store for the future plan wise, as far as COVID. Exactly. The biggest mistake some of these employers have made is they don’t have a plan, yet. They’re still trying to recruit and get people on board and working with them. Well, that’s when you get recruiters like Mohammed I who understand it all. Yeah, and tell them what they have to do to get it the right way.
47:44
I agree. That’s, that’s why you hire us because we actually know what we’re talking about.
47:51
Sorry, it’s also a telltale sign to the market that, or at least the candidate that if you don’t have all those questions answered, the likelihood of you putting that job on hold is greater, right, you know, if they’re not answer, if you can’t answer those questions. It’s almost that, you know, to me, two, three weeks from now, you might come back and say, Hey, listen, we’re putting this on hold right now, because we need to rethink this or there could be some kind of a structural change. Right. You know, as you’re trying to recruit net, you know, that’s also a tough message. candidate to hear. So I guess we can call out to all of the employers who are listening to this right now, right? Read Jennifer’s little post that said, who, what, where, when? And how do you have these answers before you hire? And if not reach out? And I will guide you on how to do that.
48:40
Jennifer, what was the question you had for men?
48:44
Well, because when we first started, my hand was in the midst of looking for a new position. And this I mean, if you guys don’t know, this guy is really gifted. I’ve checked him out. He’s really gifted on what he does, check in the mail.
48:59
But what I want to know for all the listeners who are out there looking from a seasoned professional such as yourself, on the interviewing, what did you learn about yourself that you never knew before? When you answered asinine questions?
49:16
You know, I think the thing that that
49:20
I think the one thing I’ve learned about myself is is
49:24
is sort of who I am as as a candidate, what, you know, what’s really interesting to me, I think that
49:33
a lot of times when you know when the market is good, and you’re getting offers and you just sort of take it and you’re not thinking about you know, a lot of times you’re looking at some very narrow reasons for moving whether it’s Hey, you know, this is an opportunity to advance my career or money or something. But for me, what’s been interesting is I’ve had a chance to take a step back and say what kind of a firm do I want to work for what kind of am I looking for, and I put that first
50:00
As opposed to everything else, and I thought, and I think that what I’ve learned is if you put that first in terms of what type of an environment, what type of a culture, what type of people do you want to work with, I think everything else will follow. That’s been the big takeaway in Gosh, I guess it’s nine months now
50:21
that I’ve learned in all of this, and it really, you know, this, this, this is this pandemic is definitely tested. Me it’s tested anyone else that that’s caught in sort of the Riptide
50:34
in terms of what they want, what they’re looking for, and, and also it’s taught, you know, it’s taught me what I don’t want and what I’m, you know, what becomes non negotiable, you know, when, you know, what’s what’s going to say, Hey, you know what, that Job’s not worth it, no amount of money is gonna, you know, it’s not going to make me know. And I think you can ask the same thing for all the applicants that are out there who are looking for employment right now, you need to ask yourself those same questions who, what, where, when, and how and why of the job that I am really looking for. And if you don’t have those answers, you need to find them. So you can ask questions when you are interview, so it aligns for what you really want.
51:15
And his old adage is, if you don’t know who you are, then you can’t find a job. And I think that when you figure those those things out, and you do the research on a company, your interest definitely shines through, you know, it’s going to be evident, it’s really hard to sort of fake that.
51:32
That genuine excitement
51:35
that you might have for a job for a company for a particular role. And when you do the homework, and you start sort of peeling, kind of peeling the layers of the onion back and you sort of see it, and it’s like, wow, this is a great story. This is something that I’m genuinely excited about. And, you know, and you start sort of doing that balancing act, right, you know, what would I, you know, what, what would it take to kind of get me in there, and, you know, what am I willing to give up, and you sort of do that, do that trade off. And I think that’s the interesting part of it. And, you know, also, that not everyone might have that time to go through that, that that thought process, because for some, you need to get a job immediately. And you just sort of take what you can get us, you can sort of stretch it out a little bit more. And, you know, like myself, it’s a bit of a balancing act, right, because you don’t want to stay sort of too far out in the market and miss opportunities. But at the same time, you want to make sure you find the right one. But I think that’s a good transition, what you said at the very end, to find a job right away, to remind people that it’s okay to find a job right now. You don’t have to go after the career, go after the job. And then when things open up, then you can find your career. And there’s more, we need more people who want a job, do a good job, go to work every day and then come home. If we actually had more people like that you’d be surprised on the different types of employees that would be opening up.
53:00
It’s not for everybody. I have a question for you, Jennifer, just from your perspective, and certainly when you advise from your seat when you’re advising candidates, if
53:10
you know if I’m looking for that balance between Hey, I really need to find a job today because I got to pay my mortgage versus, you know, I want to build something towards a career. What would you recommend if I just had to take the job? Right? You know, would you What would you say? to someone you know, someone in that position who’s just taking the job? You know, how do you? How do you get the most out of it?
53:34
By doing your best? Yeah. A lot. Okay, what your question as you already answered it, and a lot of people think too much. How do I do this? How do I do that? I know it sounds really, you just do it. If you need a job, and there’s one that’s available, I mean, don’t understand there’s not jobs left and right right now and I get that. But if there’s a Bradley job available to you a barista working in a library, work in a queue FFC or anything else like that some of these companies are paid 25 bucks an hour for a job, then that’s what you do. And if you’re still looking for a career, when you come home, you do that balance. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with getting a job. Here. I have a good example. So I just recently spoke with someone in HR. They’re so used to being the HR director, the head of HR, that that was all they were interested in. But most of the positions or the positions they had run into that they were offered or that were open for HR generalist roles. So it was kind of like a decision they had to make where they were talking to me about it. Should I just take a generalist role, you know, but I don’t want to I want to wait until I find a director role. Well, I think it comes back to what you’re saying both of you that so you might just need to go ahead and take the job right now being that generalist role. And the other thing that I feel is it may not be the job that you want in that moment, but
55:00
Who’s to say that taking just a job to make money won’t get move you into the position you are dreaming of having one day. I mean, lots of I think a lot of people are forgetting the fact that you usually have to work your way up. So even if you worked your way up at one company, that doesn’t mean that you can jump right into another company at the top, you might have to start over and work your way up again, which goes back to just take a job. There’s so many Yeah, there’s so many different aspects are in the habit, okay?
55:33
There’s so many pros and cons on what you just said, Cory, it’s unbelievable. Because an HR generalist who’s finally been a generalist, and she’s looking now or he is looking now for a director position or a manager position. Right? Why should they have to take a step back? They’ve been there for 10 years, it’s their time to climb that corporate ladder, right? During a pandemic, am I am I cutting myself short? Am I really doing myself a disservice, if I’m taking a step back, am I be literally myself. And then you just have to say, if you can afford a hold afternoon, hold off, if you can’t afford to hold off, then you suck it up, you take the job, you make the best of it. And then you continue to continue to look for other roles.
56:17
That sounds harsh.
56:19
And you could also look for opportunities within the firm that you know, you work with right there with a set plan of, here’s what I want to get out of this job, you know, even if it’s even if the underlying or at least certainly the number one reason to say Listen, I just gotta you know, just got to pay mortgage, pay my rent, get put food on my table, but you can still go in to that opportunity and say, Well, here are the skills I want to develop. And let me see if there are other opportunities for me to, to learn to grow and to to sort of diversify your career, if you will, or at least from an employer’s perspective, if they’re smart enough to say, I know you might be quote, unquote, overqualified, but I’m going to utilize your talents as best I can, I’m going to keep you happy until I can’t keep you happy anymore. Right, that’s just a smart employer, and they’re doing a really good job, that encore will just, you know, build that trajectory or understand where they’re coming from, or just put them on a contract and to say, hey, let’s make you a contract employee. So I can still utilize your talents and allow you still to find another position. Right. And I think that’s where a lot of people are, they’re kind of missing their chance, because they’re, it’s a pride thing, they don’t want to take a step down. But it I don’t think there’s anything wrong with going into an interview saying, I have been in a director role for past X amount of years. So that’s more of what I’m interested in. But I’m willing to take on this generalist role, you know, for now, in the hopes that one day I can move up, I think that that’s very respectable to see it someone with the character that can take take a few steps back into a role they are overqualified for, just to show that they’re willing to put in the work to move back up again. And again, you’re 100%, right on that with a lot of pros and cons that follow that up
58:04
to what would be the
58:06
harder, what would be the cons, your ego has been demolished,
58:12
trying to go to work, and praising the job that you’re doing. And every time you go to work, like I’m better than this, I’m better than this. And sucking up your ego to feed your family is extremely hard to do. And the person who can do it is going to go further in life. But it’s not necessarily the thing that they’re going to want to do.
58:34
So I mean, it’s just like I working with a person right now, who has been a customer service manager, for what, eight to 10 years now. And she actually is stepping back and wanting to become just an individual for her own purpose. So now they’re looking to find another manager. My question to her right away was, how is your ego going to take that because you actually have to train your soon to be manager who is going to be managing you, knowing that you’re training this person how to do the job that you’ve done.
59:02
And it was she had to take a lot of personal insight to do that. But can you also imagine the person who gets that job?
59:09
Yeah, that’s how am I? How am I supposed to fill these shoes. So it’s a council balance on everything that we’re talking about.
59:16
And we saw a lot of this in the financial services crisis, you know, in, in, in in sort of the early to mid, you know, 2000s and, and one of the big things I saw were, you know, you’d see managing directors who led large businesses who lost their jobs, you know, their company went under or their company took a massive hit. And they were they were effectively pushed out and they had to take jobs that were, you know, from a corporate title lower from a comp perspective, lower and a lot of that was redefining, you know, having to redefine themselves over, you know, over a couple of years. But the one challenge is that, you know, certainly if you were at sort of this level
59:59
and you had to go to this level,
1:00:00
You might not, it might take you a little while to get back up to where you were from a comp perspective. And that’s on Wall Street, you know, that’s in financial services. But
1:00:09
you know, I fully believe I think if you if you, if you’re thoughtful and strategic about the opportunities and the roles you take on,
1:00:17
you can, you know, it can be additive, you know, to your ego is, your ego is what it is. And it’s what you make of it, that makes the driving force between the employer side as well as the applicant side, I want to bring up a point and see what your thoughts are on it. So this actually came up on a different episode on a totally different topic. But I think it’s very relevant here, too, is I think that a lot of employers and people searching for jobs are under this misconception that, why I think employers right now are under this misconception that anyone’s lucky to get any job that can right now, because there’s so many people losing jobs. And then there’s a lot of employees out people looking for jobs that feel the same way. But in reality, if you look at it from another perspective, there are so many businesses closing, laying off people that there’s actually I feel, I feel like there’s more competition now than there was before. Because all those businesses that closed now all of those employees are going to need jobs. All of the people that were laid off are now going to need jobs, there are probably in fact, more people looking that are very, very qualified, if not overqualified, for positions that are open right now than ever before. So that mentality of you’re just lucky to get anything off for you. Or I’m just lucky to get anything that’s open. Yeah, I mean, I know it can be a struggle for some and that you should take something if you need to make money. But I don’t think employers should have that mindset of offering this person a job. They’re just lucky to get something right now, because I think it’s in fact, the opposite. Opposite, they have a lot of opportunity right now. And a lot of the people that are searching is not because they were fired because of their quality of work are their abilities. It was because the business was no longer there. So it’s it’s just a COVID layoff? No, yeah, it’s put a lot of qualified, very good, successful people out there that are, you know, able to take on a new position that probably would have never left, if they didn’t have to.
1:02:24
You know, that’s where interviewing
1:02:29
the right way now, and a different way than what you used to interview comes into play. And I’m going to do, and I normally don’t do this on podcast, but I’m going to do a shameless plug.
1:02:41
If you hire a recruiter, and you tell them what you’re looking for, you let that input that recruiter, come through all that and really skim off the top and really go through all of the fluff. So you’re not inundated by 500 resumes. And oh, this resume looks great. But so when you hire somebody like that, and you hire somebody like myself, that’s our job is to get through that fluff to get through all of that individual, like I deserve it, I deserve it, I deserve it. And that’s where an employer really has to come up with smarter questions, and different questions in order to get the person that they’re looking for. So they don’t lose them in six months. Because as soon as we start opening up and opening up by 2023,
1:03:25
if all goes well, I’m knocking on wood, we’re going to be back to where we almost were before. Okay, we’re ready for that. However, employers are going to be even in a worst hole if they hire poorly. Because when this market opens up, again, all these really good people that they hire, and they’re not being treated the right way. Guess who’s going to leave them right away? Yes, exactly.
1:03:50
I mean, it’s definitely a buyers market right now, for employers, I think the
1:03:55
you know, rather than trying to get a good candidate on the cheap, I think it’s an opportunity for a lot of these companies to think about where they want to be six months, a year, two years from now, what skills are needed, and finding those people right now, because you can get people in with the skills that you might need down the road, if you’re trying to grow a business, you’re trying to expand into a new market, if you’re trying to develop a new product, you know, those people are out there, and they’re very good people out there who can help get you to that position. That’s certainly my thought, you know, I’ve seen a lot of really good and highly qualified people, really talented people who are currently out in the market, really not, obviously, through no fault of their own, but just from, from, you know, the businesses, they were in the firms they were in shutting down, to cut, you know, to having to change the way they do business. And so I think it’s an opportunity for a lot of these companies to really,
1:04:54
you know, kind of get themselves further than before.